Terraforming

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m741
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Terraforming

Post by m741 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:43 pm

A few years back, this video of an Indian guy who planted an island was pretty popular. And I recently saw this video about a similar project in Texas.

I also was reading through halfmoon's journal, where she described buying some logged-out property many years back and letting it regrow. Likewise, a blog I read describes buying a shared island with friends, although that's focused on building trails and a yurt.

I like the idea of buying some land, especially non-ideal land (that isn't a superfund site), and rehabilitating it, maybe using it to build a little cabin, to camp, etc. Anyone aware of other similar projects?

At this point it's some time out, so mostly abstract daydreaming. I'm wondering if anyone has pointers, particular around researching land purchases online (I've naively used Zillow, but it's just terrible for land research). Seems like 20 acres would be a minimum for any reasonable project; I have no idea what the cost would be in an area within 2-3 hours of a city, but how far do you think you could stretch $10k or $25k?
Last edited by m741 on Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terraforming

Post by jacob » Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:53 pm

http://landwatch.com ... you're not gonna form or reform anything approximately close to Terra though.

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Riggerjack
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Re: Terraforming

Post by Riggerjack » Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:42 pm

I understand you haven't looked too hard at homesteading, but what halfmoon did was far beyond letting it regrow.

But that is because she wanted more than just a regrown clear-cut.

But homesteading is the term you are looking for. Google will have all you wanted to know.

I bought 5 acres, and cleared enough to get my house here. The basics are very simple.

Can you build on it? Lots of land too steep/wet/unstable to build on. Can you build legally? this is a whole thread in itself. Can you get water? Can you process sewage on-site, or is there a sewer system to export that issue? Can you access the lot from a public road? Legally? Is there an eagle's nest? Wood Pecker's nest? There are thousands of species on it considered for the endangered species list, and groups lobbying everyday to add in subgroups of common species.

The questions you are asking are all intensely local questions.

The restrictions are applied at national, state, regional, county and local levels. Spend some time in places you are interested. The Google (place) critical areas ordinances for some of the restrictions.

Price is a result of demand, and supply restriction, so the closer to a city, the higher the price. The more blue the state, the more restrictions you can expect. This sucks in that it raises the cost of entry. But it is nice in that it makes housing developments restricted to areas closer to cities, as well.

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m741
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Re: Terraforming

Post by m741 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:05 pm

@riggerjack: maybe I shouldn't have mentioned the cabin aspect. As I understand it, homesteading is approaching this from a self-sufficiency angle, and is orthogonal to my current interests. It's cool, and maybe it's something I'll want to do at some point, but I was thinking more about just owning land (for hiking, camping, trail construction, transforming a broken ecosystem, etc), and less about construction.

Leaving behind land that's been transformed, improved, or maintained under my stewardship seems like a great opportunity. Leaving behind a cabin is less interesting to me.

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Re: Terraforming

Post by General Snoopy » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:45 pm

If you go this route be sure to check into real estate taxes. Depending on the jurisdiction and the land use classification these taxes can be considerable. Additionally, and importantly, investigate liability considerations and squatter rights (you can lose the land if you are not using it).

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Re: Terraforming

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:18 am

This is going to be a bit "Do as I say, not as I have done", but I would suggest that instead of considering your first step to be figuring out how to purchase a minimum of 20 acres, you might begin by terraforming your kitchen and living room, or even your microbial gut - lol.

Human beings are kind of on the big side, so our aesthetic perspective on nature tends towards whitewater rivers, wolf packs, ancient stands of redwood, herds of bison or grand canyon scapes. However, most of the action in the world of nature is taking place on a much smaller scale. It can be somewhat frustrating because tending towards infinite regress, but you could start a career of self-aware stewardship simply by purchasing (or making!-reference How to Make Everything from Scratch video series) a basic microscope and a field guide to the common weeds in your region.

There are practical and psychological reasons why human beings create clearings, asphalt-coated parking lots, and tiled bathroom floors. As Michael Pollan noted in "Second Nature", if you find yourself on a previously cleared trail gazing at wilderness, then that isn't wilderness, it is a garden prepared for your pleasure. OTOH, if you have 3 poorly trained dogs, an overflowing compost bin, and an inhibition against using bleach to clean your kitchen, you might find yourself in the midst of an out-of-human-control wilderness within the walls of an urban apartment :(

I sometimes travel with my BF when he travels for business, so one of my amusements is attempting to apply the philosophy of perma-culture or the challenge of rugged survivalism to the environment of a modern, semi-posh hotel. I identify the plants around the pool, barter with the housekeeping staff for more coffee pods, re-use "dirty" linens, and challenge my engineer companion on best method to re-boot the building systems given grid collapse. Compared to that exercise/environment, my 1/3 acre of vacant urban lots seems like virgin forest. I don't know what your current living situation is, but you might start with an exercise to make your Zone 0 (space interior to walls of home) into as much of a self-sufficient biosphere as possible given limitations such as terms of lease, window placement, surly co-occupants. For instance, you could put a bunch of plants in your bathroom, calculate their likely oxygen production vs. your needs, and provide them with diluted urine as nutrient source.

IOW, you could attempt starting from your own place in the realm of civilization and becoming aware of how it is in conflict and co-operation with nature towards the betterment of you, and then work outwards, rather than starting from a place that isn't currently fit for human occupation and then working upwards. Something like that :)

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Re: Terraforming

Post by IlliniDave » Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:49 am

If be rehabilitating you mean let it revert to it's natural state, then the best thing to do is to leave it alone.

I am planning for a similar project except, due to my age, I'm more interested in a property that is already mature in its natural state. Trees are a requirement for me so that means nothing that was recently clear cut or burned in a wildfire. I would like a good portion of the parcel to be wetland. That keeps the price down (and because I plan to ultimately donate it to a conservation land trust). Otherwise, I'm looking for something that isn't much good for any other type of development (again, cost). My only intended use of the property is to create a primitive camp site and use it as a getaway and a place to do some foraging. Interestingly, that combination of low and high ground with little development potential yields some interesting ground for someone who's a nature/critter nerd that can be somewhat scenic in a primordial way.

In the area I'm looking (far northern/western Great Lakes area) to get land for $1k/acre or less it's usually large tracts (80 acres or more) that are way off grid. The type of land I'm looking for seems to list for $2K-$5K per acre in 10 to 40 acre parcels. You might find cheaper land further west, especially if you don't care about having a lot of trees.

One thing that might help is to look for land marketed as "hunting" property. It's usually the cheapest around (if you are not looking in a "destination" hunting area) and often has diverse habitat. It's often way off grid and challenging to access. And beware that your "neighbors" will be running around trying to kill things in-season.

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Re: Terraforming

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:20 am

IlliniDave said: If be rehabilitating you mean let it revert to it's natural state, then the best thing to do is to leave it alone.
True and not true. Worst case scenario would be roughly analogous to attempting to restore your virginity through practice of never brushing your hair or teeth. Due to extreme wide influence of human activities and other natural changes/fluxes in the overall planetary environment, there is virtually no possibility for any return to museum piece version of myth of ultimate climax state. For instance, any passable road maintained at any boundary of a piece of property will likely have a very large influence on flow of rain water, and the variability of rainfall in any given region may be increasing in any given region, and water-loving "invasive" species may have arrived via airplane 30 years ago. So, it is my take that there is no avoiding the need to determine what best possible outcome might look like, and taking some action to achieve it.

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Re: Terraforming

Post by IlliniDave » Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:48 am

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:20 am
IlliniDave said: If be rehabilitating you mean let it revert to it's natural state, then the best thing to do is to leave it alone.
True and not true. Worst case scenario would be roughly analogous to attempting to restore your virginity through practice of never brushing your hair or teeth. Due to extreme wide influence of human activities and other natural changes/fluxes in the overall planetary environment, there is virtually no possibility for any return to museum piece version of myth of ultimate climax state. For instance, any passable road maintained at any boundary of a piece of property will likely have a very large influence on flow of rain water, and the variability of rainfall in any given region may be increasing in any given region, and water-loving "invasive" species may have arrived via airplane 30 years ago. So, it is my take that there is no avoiding the need to determine what best possible outcome might look like, and taking some action to achieve it.
I suppose, but it's "natural state" is not and never was a constant. So there's perhaps no going back to what it once was at some arbitrary point in the past, but nature will reclaim it based on the conditions at present. Of course if you want it to be something other than what it's natural state would be, then you have work to do, but is that restoration or simply another form of human development? I dunno the answer to that. Plus fighting against nature is a lot of work, especially when you're looking at ~20 acres. I can barely keep my 1/3 arce lot tame enough to avoid complaints.

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Re: Terraforming

Post by Riggerjack » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:01 am


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Re: Terraforming

Post by Riggerjack » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:19 am

I'm still new at posting pics. But the first link is a picture of a road I cut in, 3-4 years ago. It was bare earth.

The next is a pic of my front yard, from the street.

The 3rd is my new neighbor's yard. Last fall, it looked like my front yard, but some heavy equipment fixed that.

Now, if he does nothing more, it will look like my "road" in 4 years. It will look like my front yard in 7 years, minus the full sized trees. In 10 years, it will be hard to tell the land had been cleared. In 30 years, the trees will be big enough you couldn't reach around them. In 80, the trees will be multigenerational. Original firs, mixed with 2-3 generation alder.

The environment doesn't need "restoration". It just needs humans to stop messing with it.

Now buying a piece of land, with the intent to stop people from messing with it is as good a reason as any. Or to camp on. Or whatever. But having a piece to steward is going to give you a completely different perspective on the ridiculous things city folk say about the environment they see on television, and in ads for charities.

Reference 7wb5's post above about "OMG weeds", as a prime example.

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Re: Terraforming

Post by Toska2 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:24 am

Try the Ontonagon, MI area to stretch your dollar. A remote area that is economically depressed.

I, myself, would buy land that is a part of a trail. Routine, friendly, active and interesting visitors delivered to my doorstep? Reminds me of about "web of goals".

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Re: Terraforming

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:44 am

Riggerjack said: Now buying a piece of land, with the intent to stop people from messing with it is as good a reason as any. Or to camp on. Or whatever. But having a piece to steward is going to give you a completely different perspective on the ridiculous things city folk say about the environment they see on television, and in ads for charities.

Reference 7wb5's post above about "OMG weeds", as a prime example.
Top
I'm not sure whether or not you are reflexively assigning me membership in some sort of liberal lollipop guild always in favor of regulation. I was born and currently reside in the city, but I lived in 3 different rural areas of Michigan for 17 years. I don't give a fig about political signaling. I am dating a man who voted for the idiot in the White House. I dropped out of my local political action group due to "tear my hair out" level of frustration, and I am currently engaged in battle over fence code with my city. I am mostly interested in science and systems.

It is true that in the course of a human lifetime, the overwhelming tendency of an untended plot of land (even in the heart of post-industrial Detroit) will be to go through stages of growth towards what used to be referred to as climax. I have had to remove swathes of maple seedlings from almost every garden I have ever tended. The principle mechanism that will reset the cycle is fire. What I was trying to convey is that when an individual takes on the role of steward, the human gaze, which is necessarily inclusive of a system of values and an aesthetic, will inform goal of stewardship.

I admire your goal of stewardship towards "wilderness preservation" for your large piece of rural property. It is different than my current goal of stewardship for my small urban property. I was thinking about the method employed for creating series of ponds off of road cut runoff on sloped properties that is often used in perma-culture design, and I was thinking about such realities as kudzu and white pine blister which have in our lifetimes have altered some areas of some "wildernesses" in a manner generally deemed less pleasing to most humans. On my small urban plot I am growing black currants which are known to be an alternate host for white pine blister. If I was attempting to grow an orchard near a stand of white pine, I might not choose to import black currants to my domain. If I were to build a cabin on a forested piece of property in a area subject to periodic drought, I would certainly choose to create a clearing around my dwelling and safe egress in and out. Once I have created this clearing, I will have to choose whether I will maintain it by mowing, encouraging vigorous growth of low ground cover, and/or gardening. Etc. etc. etc.

The point I was trying to make in my advice to OP is that anybody can start right away to do the work in front of them. You don't have to sit on your hands until you save up enough money to buy 20 acres. You can pick up litter in your park while you take your morning walk. You can sprout some edible seeds on your window sill. You can learn enough about chemistry, microbiology and modern sanitary engineering to get a grasp on what's happening when you scrub the mildew in your tub with cleanser.

Old growth forests will only support human life at a very low population density. They are vitally important, beautiful and I absolutely believe the realm assigned to them should be extended. However, my little system design project is kind of sort of based on equilibrium achieved at about 10 billion human population and maintenance of libraries and symphonies, as well as forests and farms. I am not at all implying that my goals or boundaries should be adopted by everybody else in their system design, I am just attempting to communicate that all of us are engaged in many complex systems, and it is good and interesting to be as fully aware and informed as possible.

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Re: Terraforming

Post by Riggerjack » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:05 am

Sorry, my slow typing on this phone interfered with my message again.

My poorly expressed point is that stewardship of wildland is not just contradictory, it is unnecessary. 7wb5, you are gardening, a very human approach to landscape management. And vital, cuz we all like to eat.

However, this not how to effectively restore an environment. That is best done with benign neglect. Emphasis on benign.

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Re: Terraforming

Post by enigmaT120 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:42 pm

I've been watching an area not far from my place since around 1991, and the climax species there seems to be Scotch Broom, a non-native invasive species. There are Douglas-fir forests all around it but they don't seem able to get their seeds started in this area. I don't think it's likely due to soil difference, though that is possible. I think the brush is preventing the trees from getting started. Some previous land owner clear cut it and either didn't replant or didn't control the brush, and it's just stuck in it's state until somebody comes in and mows, sprays what's left, and replants trees. I guess that's malign neglect?

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Re: Terraforming

Post by ebast » Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:50 pm

Toska2 wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:24 am
I, myself, would buy land that is a part of a trail. Routine, friendly, active and interesting visitors delivered to my doorstep? Reminds me of about "web of goals".
What a good suggestion. Thankful to see this.

I mean, ugh, one more constraint, right? but it's one I'd want to add to any site evaluation in addition to Riggerjack's intrinsic evaluation since it starts to address a problem I've seen come up in the journals of a number of very devoted homesteaders (Ran Prieur comes to mind but halfmoon touches on this tradeoff nicely as well and come to think of it in his own way theanimal's journal) that the better land packages you find especially taking price into account tend to be more remote and so come at the cost of social integration and opportunities.

Basically: get a nice package of 'pristine' land to get away from the rat race and then realize the things you liked about having some rats around.

I've gone back and forth in rural and urban living and it's interesting to watch in some of these cases you see people giving it a go, sinking a few years into it, then putting up their land for sale to return to a plot in a town where they have neighbors again (did not think I would end up saying this, but are they ending up at 7wb5's situation as their ideal?) In that case it might be all the better for the idea of starting now, starting local: you might end up there in the end anyway.

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Re: Terraforming

Post by Riggerjack » Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:10 pm

climax species there seems to be Scotch Broom,
A little north of you, and we get plenty of scotch broom here, as well. Usually, it is along the roads, as trees will crowd it out. Where they don't, the soils are rocky and too well drained to support larger plants. But we gave lots of glacial till here, that may be the difference.

I don't worry about invasive species much. So long as they aren't dandelions, my wife hates the dandelions. By extension, that means I am mildly irked by dandelions, I guess. I know, kudzu, and such... But really, every species as it expands it's territory is invasive, and leave it alone, things will balance out. Something will exploit it. Maybe not in 20 years, but something will find it, eat it, and be the new invasive species. The whole idea of the world as a managed park brings to mind wiping out wolves, starting with our national parks. Then eliminating forest fires...

We are not as good at managing nature as we like to believe. Hell, we aren't even as good at managing humans as we like to believe.

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Re: Terraforming

Post by halfmoon » Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:10 pm

m741 wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:43 pm
I like the idea of buying some land, especially non-ideal land (that isn't a superfund site), and rehabilitating it, maybe using it to build a little cabin, to camp, etc.
This has digressed a little from your original request, so let me back up and say that you have a wonderful idea. Buying land and trying to restore it to health is a noble pursuit. Don't let anyone (including forum members whom I greatly respect) tell you otherwise.

Invasive species are real, and some of them permanently alter a landscape. Some of them are human. ;) DH and I have done our share of invading, so we try to balance that a bit.

Some years ago, we bought 10 acres of wetland that abuts the 20 acres we now live on in W WA. We put the property into open space designation, which prohibits development and reduces the property taxes by 80%. In conjunction with our wooded acreage, it widens the habitat for a wealth of species. Property taxes are about $300/year for the 10 acres. Our primary motivation was admittedly the not-so-noble desire to protect our border from development.

We haven't done much with the wetland, though the county did pay for someone to plant native conifers on it to supplement the existing alder. There are a few invasive plants that we always look out for and eradicate, prime among these being English ivy (strangles trees) and water iris. Don't get me started on water iris. This crap will take over a wetland, and there's no looking back. No happy little "Something else will limit its growth in 50 years". Someone probably said that about people once, and look where we are. :(

@Illinidave's intention to donate land to a conservation group is well-intentioned, but keep in mind that they may not want it. Conservation groups have limited funds, and they generally don't want the ongoing expense of property without significant acreage or unique habitat.

If you do pursue this goal eventually, I have a few suggestions. These are primarily oriented to my area of experience, which is Washington state:

1. Look at the surrounding landscape. Buying a parcel in the middle of rampant development won't do much for habitat. Adjacency to other habitat, especially publicly owned land, is important and will also help with qualifying for property tax reduction if you go that route (see #2).

2. Find out if the county has an open space program to reduce your taxes. Keep in mind that this will limit your ability to use the property or resell it for top dollar.

3. Educate yourself on what exotic plant species to look for and how invasive they are. Prioritize your efforts.

4. If the property is in open range (grazed by cattle), fence it. If you don't want the expense or work of fencing, look elsewhere. I know that there are differing opinions on this, so I'll just share mine: there can be no habitat restoration with prevailing grazing practices. Exceptions do exist.

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Re: Terraforming

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:34 pm

Since it is a legume, Scotch Broom fixes its own nitrogen, so that already gives it a competitive head start over many other species. It also produces alkaloids. Goats will eat it.

OTOH, if wilderness is to be defined and designated as the realm where no humans enter or interfere, then the only rational goal of stewardship would be guarding the boundary from entry by other humans. In theory, this is pretty much the definition of Zone 5 in permaculture. In reality, human actions in regions outside designated boundary influence multiple flows that can't be fenced or filtered. For instance, I once camped in a semi-tropical preserve that was loaded with feral descendants of house cats.

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Re: Terraforming

Post by m741 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:17 pm

Thanks everyone - Jacob for the link, riggerjack for the words of caution/restraint, and 7wb5 and halfmoon for the advice. Great stuff and I'll keep it all in mind going forward. In the meantime, it's enough to keep my fantasy alive going forward :).

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Re: Terraforming

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:39 am

halfmoon wrote: 1. Look at the surrounding landscape. Buying a parcel in the middle of rampant development won't do much for habitat. Adjacency to other habitat, especially publicly owned land, is important and will also help with qualifying for property tax reduction if you go that route (see #2).
It's funny how this rule of thumb also somewhat applies to my urban situation. There is not enough protected green space of any kind within walking distance of my project, but within biking distance there are various projects to reclaim blighted areas into parks, large gardens and greenhouses, and long biking/pedestrian paths with wide green boundary. Due to influx of both public and private investment and philanthropy, fingers of green space have been expanding fairly rapidly in my direction in just the few years I have been living here. So, I sometimes find myself hoping along the lines of "Please, my Lord Dan Gilbert, grant unto my humble neighborhood the honor and privilege of easy, safe access to the path upon which the neon spandex wearing yuppie bicyclists who dwell in the far northern realm of abundance will travel to the great river. I beseech of thee also to further grant funds to allow the expansion of the realm of Universal study of the Scholar Monks towards our other border, so that we may no longer live in fear of banditry after viewing art film evening at museum. Please accept this small gift basket of super-anti-oxidant organic black currants grown upon my humble estate as token of my respect and gratitude. (Best "Miss Bunny's School of Dance" Curtsy)."

OTOH, my situation is the opposite since green space expansion and gentrification go hand-in-hand. However, this is an extremely minor issue in my locale since the realm of blight is so extensive. I would be amazed if development proceeded at a pace such that I could no longer pick up vacant lots for a pittance even 30 years from now.

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Re: Terraforming

Post by IlliniDave » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:50 am

halfmoon wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:10 pm
@Illinidave's intention to donate land to a conservation group is well-intentioned, but keep in mind that they may not want it. Conservation groups have limited funds, and they generally don't want the ongoing expense of property without significant acreage or unique habitat.
Dunno if that caution is for me or just a generic one. The presence of wetland is the key. It is aggressively protected in the area. And I suppose if when the time comes no one want's it, so what? The real purpose is for me to enjoy it, and it will be preserved for as long as I own it. In truth, that's not saying much. Besides possibly erecting a small hunting shack on the fringe and a tiny corner that could theoretically be logged, nothing will ever happen there. County, state, and I think even federal regulations/law bar any activity/development that will impact the wetland.

The other option would be to donate it to the state which owns an adjacent "40" that includes most of the rest of the wetland in question.

This isn't just an starry-eyed tree-hugger impulse. A couple years (and counting) of thought/planning have gone into it.

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Re: Terraforming

Post by halfmoon » Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:26 am

@IlliniDave, I apologize if my comment sounded dismissive of your plan. I was trying to give the OP a general outline of things to consider, which you obviously have. In fact, your idea of buying that wetland property and keeping it natural sounds great. Wetlands are fantastic habitat.

It sounds like the state would have a good reason to be interested in the parcel you mention. We have 20 mountain acres in NE California that came to us years ago through a bad debt. It's part of a small inholding surrounded by National Forest, and we tried to donate it to the US Forest Service. The woman in charge of such things for the region indicated a faint, unenthusiastic interest and never got back to us. After calling and reminding her a couple of times, we gave up. Oh, well...the taxes are only about $100/year.

@7Wb5, the current situation in your part of Detroit sounds fascinating. Taking urban blight and restoring it to abundance would make me very happy. Having great ethnic food in the neighborhood wouldn't hurt either. :D I'd be so tempted, though, to keep buying vacant lots for a pittance. Are there still city services provided to the area you're homesteading?

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Re: Terraforming

Post by IlliniDave » Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:43 am

halfmoon wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:26 am
It sounds like the state would have a good reason to be interested in the parcel you mention. We have 20 mountain acres in NE California that came to us years ago through a bad debt. It's part of a small inholding surrounded by National Forest, and we tried to donate it to the US Forest Service. The woman in charge of such things for the region indicated a faint, unenthusiastic interest and never got back to us. After calling and reminding her a couple of times, we gave up. Oh, well...the taxes are only about $100/year.
?
That little piece of property sounds like a gem from my perspective!

What I'm talking is all within the outer border of the Superior National Forest, but there's quite a bit of private, state, and municipal parcels checker boarded around. The one I'm looking at currently is not adjacent to any federal land though. The 40's to the north and south are private, to the east is state, and to the west is county.

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Re: Terraforming

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:48 am

@halfmoon: There are city services available, but hooking up to the water supply or power grid would greatly increase my overhead. The fire department will fill my water cube for free once a year, and I try to limit my trash generation/outflow.

I am regularly tempted to pick up more property, but then I remember that unless I can first obtain a solar-powered armored robotic lawn-mower, I will be taking on more than I want to handle at this juncture. Also, I might prefer the additions of some sort of woods-and-water Northern camp and/or sand-and-sun Snowbird escape camp to acquiring more property in the city. My camper is a bit heavy and ancient for the purpose of hauling to other locations seasonally, and I don't own a motor vehicle of any kind, so I might just keep buying more campers to park too. I have got to do a better job of getting this all organized!

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