Front Door Security

Fixing and making things, what tools to get and what skills to learn, ...
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Sclass
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Re: Front Door Security

Post by Sclass »

Workathome,
I posted and deleted a bunch of clarifications and deleted them. What I learned while writing each is that we have to do what works for our situation.

I agree, the gun works. Pepper spray is no direct comparison. The rookies I saw shot could still walk after being sprayed. It only blinded them. They were determined to beat it to show they were the toughest cop. It took ten to twenty seconds for them to start clamping their eyes up. Application will need to be combined with evasive action. If your invader has a gun and is hell bent on killing you I'll send the flowers. Pepper spray has its limits.

FWIW my police pal says don't rely on pepper spray for home defense.

I suggested it because Llorona has (my assumption) no gun training and pepper spray would get her up and running now. Little training, less consequence of hurting someone you love and a something to have (as opposed to nothing). If I knew in advance somebody was coming in and I had to be there forget the spray, I'll pull the stick out of my pump and load it with OO buck. It's all about the circumstances.

Training with a gun is a big issue. You (I think it's you) and Jenny carrying everyday requires a high level of skill, dedication and responsibility. That wasn't something you picked up overnight. Using your weapon under duress requires a whole new level of skill that I don't have.

I am a hunter but I don't trust myself (again my situation) with something like daily carry. I scout, stalk, build a hide, zero, laser range find and still get skunked...wound, miss. I am amazed at my friends in law enforcement who live and breathe gun handling and combat as second nature daily. This is a skill and it takes training.

Since llorona has an interest in getting gun training, I say that she's on the right path. It's a long path if you want to do it well.

workathome
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Re: Front Door Security

Post by workathome »

I agree Sclass!

On the flip side, from what I've heard/seen, most criminals don't have much firearm training. They're probably not scared of using the weapon, which is I suppose to their advantage, and don't care about secondary consequences (harmed bystanders) which puts them at another advantage, but in security videos most people don't aim and try to threaten or shoot people at arms-reach. So a homeowner with basic training, knowledge of their home's layout (e.g. avoid shooting into a bedroom), and the ability to aim at 15+ feet is going to have an advantage.

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Sclass
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Re: Front Door Security

Post by Sclass »

I've heard that crooks are bad shots from my friends on the police force. I guess it takes too much discipline and dedication to train.

Sadly a lot of people come to this fun hobby from an event like Llorona's attempted home invasion. Sandra Froman ex NRA president had something like this motivate her into taking a handgun class. Apparently in her bio she said she yelled at her intruder and he still tried to get the door open. It convinced her she needed a little more power than her phone. The rest was history...she really took to the hobby.

There is still the problem of what to do when you aren't home.

A friend of mine with an alarm system has the brain box locked in a metal enclosure in a closet. The keypad is just a dumb keypad near the door. Busting it won't deactivate anything. The metal brain box was actually alarmed for tampering. I triggered it while checking to see if it was locked. The alarm wasn't even armed. I wanted to see the hardware one night during a dinner party. Apparently there was a sensor on the locked door to catch maids or service people who hoped to deactivate it. It was an embarrassing moment. "Hey SClass, the alarm is going off! How come?"

If an alarm can be deactivated by smashing a keypad you need a better system.

I guess I'm not supposed to be snooping in their alarm controller.

JohnnyH
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Re: Front Door Security

Post by JohnnyH »

Absolutely unbelievable, eery the level of prescience llorona had... One benefit to living in a gun state, invasion of an occupied home is considered suicidal. I hope these brazen criminals get some justice soon. Glad you're ok, op.

On using guns for home defense, careful what loads you choose, some will go through many walls.

llorona
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Re: Front Door Security

Post by llorona »

At the beginning of the year, the local paper published an article about an increase in burglaries. That got me started thinking about how to secure the front door - I'm not psychic or anything! But the awareness of how thieves break in ended up being a good thing, because when the noise from the kicking started, I instantly knew what was happening.

This past weekend, I took my first private lesson in firearms training. It was hard going to the shooting range for the first time because of the noise. We hear gunshots all the time, and believe me, these shots are NOT being fired by responsible gun owners. Fortunately, most of these thugs can't shoot accurately, otherwise there would be blood running in the streets.

Johnny, thank you for the advice about safety. Next lesson, I've asked my instructor to help me with what some of you have said - choosing a pistol and ammunition that will put down an assailant, while minimizing the risk of harming a neighbor or bystander.

The decision to learn to shoot feels very heavy. On a day-to-day basis, everyone has things around them that can be used as weapons - a lamp, a frying pan, or even a ballpoint pen. But owning a gun and adopting a self-defense mindset means making the decision to defend oneself with lethal force if needed. It's easy to say, "Yeah, if an intruder breaks into my house, they deserve to be shot." But if that were to actually happen, there would be serious consequences. Not necessarily legal ones, but there would almost definitely be psychological/emotional fallout.

workathome
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Re: Front Door Security

Post by workathome »

I think most good/sane people would find shooting someone pretty traumatic, even tough-guys.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT1JjwuAxmQ NSFW

Riggerjack
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Re: Front Door Security

Post by Riggerjack »

I won't push the firearms angle. It is all over,do your own research.

I can say, with friends and relatives on both sides of the law, a few things.

Pepper spray is ugly for everyone in the area. More for the recipient than the sprayer, but nobody is having a good time. The guy who is amped up for a home invasion is better prepared for this in most cases. High adrenaline, plus mental preparation, and likely higher pain thresholds. I've known folks who prepare for this, practicing to "play thru the pain" so to speak. Still, fighting blind is no fun.

My friend has taken a taser to the chest, and kept coming. He was the only one in the class to do so. Also the only one the instructor had seen.People have huge variance in conductivity, and individuals vary day to day.

Both tasers and pepper spray are effective, but nothing is guaranteed. While I am confident in my firearms, I still understand that they may just give me an edge in the hand to hand that may follow.

Whatever your tool of choice, use it backing up, ideally with a place to sidestep. Use of one tool does not in anyway preclude the use of the rest. And please remember that a pocket baton is nearly useless in a hallway.

jacob
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Re: Front Door Security

Post by jacob »

If the choice is to defend rather than run, definitely work out the legal and psychological ramifications in advance. These will not be the same in e.g. Berkeley, CA compared to Tombstone, AZ. However, it's definitely not something to contemplate while high on adrenaline with a loaded gun in hand and a perp clawing down the front door. I'd make such a decision in advance with the aid of a lawyer. What are the legal consequences? What are the personal consequences? There are a lot of potential outcomes... nearly all of them bad. There are also a lot of potential outcomes wrt running... also nearly all of them bad. Point being ... research/decide this in advance.

Also, do consider ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_KJ1R2PCMM
(hint: if anyone is rushing you, do run backwards)


llorona
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Re: Front Door Security

Post by llorona »

I'm curious to know: What would you all do if someone was battering down your front door?

In our case, our home security plan is falling into place: security cameras, a double dead-bolted security door, windows with multiple locks, fence/gates around the sides of the house, French doors bolted together, etc. It's penetrable but would take time and effort to break in. This is on top of an alarm system and neighborhood security patrol. Hopefully all of this will be enough of a deterrent to convince an intruder to try somewhere else.

If someone is hell bent on breaking in, I'm not sure I'd want to run outside. There's no telling who else could be out there. But hopefully I would have time to get to our bedroom, which is going to have a deadbolt lock on it and a firearm contained in a safe. If someone survives being shot and is still coming at me, that's where self-defense skills come in.

If an intruder/assailant manages to survive all that, they must really want to kill me and I am probably screwed.

workathome
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Re: Front Door Security

Post by workathome »

Yeah, if you're going to have a firearm you should probably be determined to shoot until blood loss or CNS failure makes it physically impossible for the attacker to continue pursuing you (no matter mental state/drug use/etc.). Of course this sucks and I pray never happens.

There's sort of a long hallway to the bedrooms in our house. Sort of like the minimum 21-feet rule, though gun would be ready. I would stand my ground here and try to prevent them from proceeding and wouldn't pursue the perp into the rest of the house, chase them, etc.

While long-guns are the most effective, if you're planning on being in a bedroom it's going to be very hard to maneuver or pull closer to your as an intruder closes distance. I prefer a reliable 9mm handgun (like a Glock) with a high-quality light mounted (like a Surefire) and quality hollow-point ammunition (the Barnes XPB copper bullets do really well in ballistics tests). I also have a 23-round magazine just because I can :-).

Riggerjack
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Re: Front Door Security

Post by Riggerjack »

I live in the backwoods. Anyone coming up my drive is coming to see me. While I have neighbors who would hear my door getting kicked in, if they were outside, odds are anyone interested in b&e would be gone before they arrived. The good news is the would at least arrive armed.

But we're buying a house on the mainland, 9 blocks from work. I think of it as our ERE house. Not such a great neighborhood, the tweakers that were squatting after the foreclosure stole to plumbing and wiring. So now I'm thinking about this more seriously.

I like the night lock, and I will reinforce the door jambs. The doors all have glass, so I'm looking into security film. I'll probably add a deadbolt to the top of the door. I'll do the same to the back door and the door to the garage.

I'll add LED lights, in hard to access places. Costco sells some very nice 23 watt recessed lights rated for wet locations. 3 of those will light up the porch and patio nicely. On my current house, I have 3 on my porch, wired through a motion sensing wall sconce. Works great!.

I have firearms, and most go in the safe but home defense guns need to be available when needed, not after. Then again, we don't have kids, and we have a unloading ritual before kids come over. If kids prevent having access to a home defense gun, you should have a first and second tool available and on hand. Stun guns, pepper spray, cheap and on eBay.

It's true that most of my plan only works if I'm home. But that's when I really want it to work. Broken or stolen stuff is just stuff. Annoying, but not really important. Truth be told, I'd rather have my stuff stolen than deal with the aftermath of shooting a burglar. For anything really bad to happen, someone has to be there.

Riggerjack
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Re: Front Door Security

Post by Riggerjack »

OK, so I'm fixing up the mainland house, and there is a medeco mortise lock on the front door, I didn't get a key for. Old door, and I'm too cheap to buy a new mortise lock, so I start looking at dit locksmithing.

All my locks are schlage, better made than kwikset, and everywhere. Easy to get keyed, etc. So while I'm figuring out changing cylinders, I ran across bump keys.

Seriously, google it. I haven't tried it yet, but it is making me rethink front door security altogether. I'll try it this weekend to see if it is as easy as shown.

billc
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Re: Front Door Security

Post by billc »

Single sided dead bolts (sold at home depot / amazon/ lowes) are a reasonable solution for times you are home and concerned about someone bumping or otherwise picking your lock.

When you are not home I think any standard locks / dead bolts + security lighting is the best you can do. If someone really wants in, they'll get in. Like you said - when you're not home, it's just stuff.

BRUTE
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Re: Front Door Security

Post by BRUTE »

Augustus wrote:no amount of money is worth dying for
really, though? if stated in reverse: any amount of money is worth paying to increase the chance of survival by any rate. this seems clearly not true for almost everyone besides crazy paranoid billionaires.

if brute could pick a 0.01% of being shot or spending all of his money on security, thereby living in poverty or having to work much longer hours, he's not sure he'd choose the survival rate increase.

in fact, brute has moved to bad neighborhoods in bad cities in bad countries to save a bit of money (among other things). he's not sure anybody actually gets killed in those neighborhoods, but brute has heard shots.

BRUTE
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Re: Front Door Security

Post by BRUTE »

what if the chance of being murdered changes from 0.01% to 0.02%? how much is that worth?

clearly, brute has made the choice to move to a more dangerous place in order to save money. not everybody in bad neighborhoods dies. even in the worst neighborhoods, only a tiny percentage of humans die.

would brute move into a neighborhood where the chance of being killed is 100%, if he got 100k for it? clearly not.
would brute move into a neighborhood where the chance of being killed is 0.01%, if he got 100k for it? yes.

edit: brute's point is that probably that it's meaningless to put a price on "death". it's like saying how much would brute pay for water. well, is brute thirsty? how much water? is brute in a desert? clearly he's not going to pay a lot while swimming in fresh water. he's going to pay more in an airport, and he'll pay with everything if thirsty in the desert. same with death.

while humans pay to reduce chance of death all the time, often times they do the opposite. brute has paid thousands of dollars for a very nice, 185hp sports motorcycle. there aren't many activities that are more risky than riding these things.

other times, humans DO move to worse areas to save on rent. they decide to spend money on something else instead of an alarm system or reinforced doors. they buy an unsafer card to safe money or have more fun instead.

there's likely a sort of perceived risk barometer in the human mind. if the perceived risk is above tolerance, humans will spend money to decrease it. if it's below tolerance, humans might spend money elsewhere until tolerance is met.

bryan
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Re: Front Door Security

Post by bryan »

seems this renewed discussion may fit better at: http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com ... 1&p=100469

To touch on @llorona's case, I know she is in the Bay Area but I'm not sure exactly where. The housing market there is a _little_ crazy and moving is easier said than done. If I were forced to buy a house there (last year or four) I would absolutely be buying in areas that (the rate of equity appreciation) would benefit from some increased gentrification e.g. buying in an area that is "dangerous" (or maybe actually dangerous) and wait for "progress".

As for front door security, an additional steel screen door (security door) is probably a good addition.

llorona
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Location: SF Bay Area

Re: Front Door Security

Post by llorona »

Hey Augustus. Thanks for your concern, and appreciate your perspective. Moving was something we considered after last year's incident, but we decided to stay. This is our house, and we like it here.

As Brute pointed out, the chances of dying in a home invasion are statistically pretty small. I'm guessing there's a greater chance of being shot in gang crossfire while driving on the freeway -- and that risk extends to anyone who drives through the general region, even if they live in an affluent community.

Also, as Bryan noted, out here it's not just a matter of picking up and moving. The local housing market is crazier than San Francisco -- think multiple bids, houses selling for 20%+ over asking, etc. It's highly unlikely that we will move until ER, when we plan on relocating out of the Bay Area.

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