@Redsted
Ubuntu is a popular Linux distribution; you can download it and burn it to a CD, or request a CD to be mailed to you:
http://www.ubuntu.com/desktop/get-ubuntu/download
Will you save a lot of money? Some. Figure that Windows or MacOS adds maybe $90 to the cost of a new computer, plus another $200 or so for Office software. So most of the cost saving is in switching to OpenOffice, which you can also download for Windows.
I'm happy to say that as a Linux user, I haven't had to pay for software since 1998 (-:
Apple v. PC...Desktop v. Laptop
@NYC ERE
Dell is price competitive on most all kinds of computers, so you can use them for a reasonable "spot price." Here's their rack server page:
http://www.dell.com/us/en/business/serv ... =bsd&cs=04
Dell is price competitive on most all kinds of computers, so you can use them for a reasonable "spot price." Here's their rack server page:
http://www.dell.com/us/en/business/serv ... =bsd&cs=04
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Night Runner
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:20 pm
@photoguy
(1) Wikipedia is not a valid source. Try again.
(2) Because most people are uneducated morons who can barely take care of their own bodies, let alone follow elementary security precautions and prophylactic procedures with their PCs. It also ties in with (3) - what JohnnyH said. Macs aren't invulnerable or perfectly secured. There's just not enough of them compared to PCs to warrant hackers' attention. There were, are, and will be viruses designed for Macs, but not nearly as many as for PCs - all because of the market share. Gloating about something like this is like... like New Zealand declaring itself to be the world's mightiest country, because nobody ever bothered to conquer it: everyone was too busy fighting bigger, stronger countries. (Not a perfect metaphor, but it should do.)
(1) Wikipedia is not a valid source. Try again.
(2) Because most people are uneducated morons who can barely take care of their own bodies, let alone follow elementary security precautions and prophylactic procedures with their PCs. It also ties in with (3) - what JohnnyH said. Macs aren't invulnerable or perfectly secured. There's just not enough of them compared to PCs to warrant hackers' attention. There were, are, and will be viruses designed for Macs, but not nearly as many as for PCs - all because of the market share. Gloating about something like this is like... like New Zealand declaring itself to be the world's mightiest country, because nobody ever bothered to conquer it: everyone was too busy fighting bigger, stronger countries. (Not a perfect metaphor, but it should do.)
As stated above, I think it really boils down to 2 requirements:
1 - Portability
2 - Application Support
High portability = Netbook or Laptop (Mac/PC)
Moderate portability = eeeBox, Mac Mini
Low/No portability = Desktop PC/Mac
As far as applications go, if Gimp (for example) doesnt cut it, youre probably going to have to bite the bullet and purchase a PC (or Windows license) or a Mac and the software you need to do your "work".
Even if you require a certain paid application (Adobe CS for example), you could always try puchasing an older version of the app (CS2 or CS3 instead of CS4), if it meets your needs, runs on your OS and doesnt have any huge security vulnerabilities.
My personal setup is a Desktop PC with a 5 year old MB, CPU, DVD-RW and case with a brand new $50 video card, 2x brand new 1TB hard drives and an OEM copy of Windows 7. Even with the MB/CPU being 5 years old, Windows 7 runs really well, Microsoft Security Essentials is free antivirus (as are AVG, avira, Avast!, etc) and it's run 99% of the applications Ive thrown at it. Should the MB/CPU die, my plan would be to get a new motherboard that is capable of running the latest and greatest CPU (like an Intel i7) but dropping a cheaper i3 into it. When the i7s drop in price in a few years, I can buy one then and upgrade the CPU for a significant discount and the only thing I have to replace is the CPU.
I also have a 2 year old Apple MacBookPro that I take with me when I travel for work and it works as well as it did when I bought it new. I hope to get 5 years out of it, but should it die, I would probably get a refurb from the Apple store for $1200 or so.
1 - Portability
2 - Application Support
High portability = Netbook or Laptop (Mac/PC)
Moderate portability = eeeBox, Mac Mini
Low/No portability = Desktop PC/Mac
As far as applications go, if Gimp (for example) doesnt cut it, youre probably going to have to bite the bullet and purchase a PC (or Windows license) or a Mac and the software you need to do your "work".
Even if you require a certain paid application (Adobe CS for example), you could always try puchasing an older version of the app (CS2 or CS3 instead of CS4), if it meets your needs, runs on your OS and doesnt have any huge security vulnerabilities.
My personal setup is a Desktop PC with a 5 year old MB, CPU, DVD-RW and case with a brand new $50 video card, 2x brand new 1TB hard drives and an OEM copy of Windows 7. Even with the MB/CPU being 5 years old, Windows 7 runs really well, Microsoft Security Essentials is free antivirus (as are AVG, avira, Avast!, etc) and it's run 99% of the applications Ive thrown at it. Should the MB/CPU die, my plan would be to get a new motherboard that is capable of running the latest and greatest CPU (like an Intel i7) but dropping a cheaper i3 into it. When the i7s drop in price in a few years, I can buy one then and upgrade the CPU for a significant discount and the only thing I have to replace is the CPU.
I also have a 2 year old Apple MacBookPro that I take with me when I travel for work and it works as well as it did when I bought it new. I hope to get 5 years out of it, but should it die, I would probably get a refurb from the Apple store for $1200 or so.
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Night Runner
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:20 pm
@NYC ERE:
"I don't appreciate your snarky tone."
Dad, is that you? :p There's absolutely nothing wrong with snark. If anything, I'm suspicious of people who appear to fear snark and respond with a quasi-authoritarian one-liner instead of a bona fide post. Does this mean you concede the debate and admit your loss? If not, I'll be more than glad to continue our debate - as long as responses consist of more than a single line (unless it's a damn good line, on the level of E=mc^2) and references are more valid than wikipedia.
"I don't appreciate your snarky tone."
Dad, is that you? :p There's absolutely nothing wrong with snark. If anything, I'm suspicious of people who appear to fear snark and respond with a quasi-authoritarian one-liner instead of a bona fide post. Does this mean you concede the debate and admit your loss? If not, I'll be more than glad to continue our debate - as long as responses consist of more than a single line (unless it's a damn good line, on the level of E=mc^2) and references are more valid than wikipedia.
I think wikipedia is fine to use as a reference in a blog posting. Especially to support facts that are not considered the least bit controversial or surprising. However, even if you don't like wikipedia, the botnet page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botnet) provides a traditional reference for every estimate of the number of compromised computers and you are free to look those up -- there are many independent sources estimating that millions of PCs are compromised. (As an aside, there was a very interesting study in Nature that concluded that wikipedia was as accurate as Encyclopedia Brittanica. Quite amazing for a crowd-sourced effort).
The security of Mac computers is certainly helped by it's lower marketshare. However, depending on the estimate, Macs have somewhere between 5-10% marketshare whereas the empirical risk of being compromised on a PC is several orders of magnitude higher (maybe millions of times higher). That's really the bottom line that is important to users.
"Because most people are uneducated morons who can barely take care of their own bodies, let alone follow elementary security precautions and prophylactic procedures with their PCs."
Computers are supposed to do work for us not the other way around. Why should I, or anybody, spend time on a computer in unnecessary and non-productive work? There are many operating systems where the user essentially has to do nothing and the risk of malware remains very low. Unfortunately, this is not true for windows.
Finally, calling people "uneducated morons" is simply uncalled for, adds nothing to the discussion, and ruins the friendly atmosphere of the board.
The security of Mac computers is certainly helped by it's lower marketshare. However, depending on the estimate, Macs have somewhere between 5-10% marketshare whereas the empirical risk of being compromised on a PC is several orders of magnitude higher (maybe millions of times higher). That's really the bottom line that is important to users.
"Because most people are uneducated morons who can barely take care of their own bodies, let alone follow elementary security precautions and prophylactic procedures with their PCs."
Computers are supposed to do work for us not the other way around. Why should I, or anybody, spend time on a computer in unnecessary and non-productive work? There are many operating systems where the user essentially has to do nothing and the risk of malware remains very low. Unfortunately, this is not true for windows.
Finally, calling people "uneducated morons" is simply uncalled for, adds nothing to the discussion, and ruins the friendly atmosphere of the board.
Oooooooooooooo-K! Back to it...
So I'm from the Seattle area, therefore I know tons of Microsoft people who always give me crap for my Mac. They say it's "too expensive". I'm not currently in the market for a new Mac laptop, BUT just out of curiosity I've been looking at Craiglist lately and there are some screaming deals on there for Mac laptops. Too risky to buy electronics from Craiglist you think? My only fear is that it's stuff that could often be stolen or not in proper working order.
Another option...might've already been mentioned (apologies if it has), the Microsoft friends are huge refurbished PC fans--laptop or desktop. I'm not completely sold on the idea of a PC in general let alone a refurbished one...thoughts?
So I'm from the Seattle area, therefore I know tons of Microsoft people who always give me crap for my Mac. They say it's "too expensive". I'm not currently in the market for a new Mac laptop, BUT just out of curiosity I've been looking at Craiglist lately and there are some screaming deals on there for Mac laptops. Too risky to buy electronics from Craiglist you think? My only fear is that it's stuff that could often be stolen or not in proper working order.
Another option...might've already been mentioned (apologies if it has), the Microsoft friends are huge refurbished PC fans--laptop or desktop. I'm not completely sold on the idea of a PC in general let alone a refurbished one...thoughts?
SO wants a macbook or equiv - and I want a home based server and I wanted a little laptop for travel.
Given my recent hack (and oddly, I think I only used Google Checkout once - for this laptop), which I think is based on my work laptop, I can't connect my external drive to this laptop until I figure out the breach...and my skills have gone way way down.
Time to harvest and sort-of emulate what JasonB said and build a linux box (linux is new to me) - add it all to my project board...and just crossed off part 1 of motorcycle license no less...
Given my recent hack (and oddly, I think I only used Google Checkout once - for this laptop), which I think is based on my work laptop, I can't connect my external drive to this laptop until I figure out the breach...and my skills have gone way way down.
Time to harvest and sort-of emulate what JasonB said and build a linux box (linux is new to me) - add it all to my project board...and just crossed off part 1 of motorcycle license no less...
Keep in mind that it might just be your google account that was hacked without actually having compromised your computer. If you've signed up for sites with the same password, they might have hacked that site without needing access to your computer. Or even the site itself might have been hacked (the big TJX debacle comes to mind here).
Personally I dislike Macs because I'm inclined to like to know how things work, and the Mac attitude leans toward closed source and proprietary locked down hardware. But this is the opinion of a computer geek/programmer, and I can understand how an average user might not be concerned about such things. Even then I still see it as paying the premium to have a 'professional' build a computer for you (and have it look good I'll admit), rather than assembling your own. Since I am interested in computers I'd rather take the DIY approach in this field and save throwing my money to professionals in other fields I don't understand (like medicine).
Personally I dislike Macs because I'm inclined to like to know how things work, and the Mac attitude leans toward closed source and proprietary locked down hardware. But this is the opinion of a computer geek/programmer, and I can understand how an average user might not be concerned about such things. Even then I still see it as paying the premium to have a 'professional' build a computer for you (and have it look good I'll admit), rather than assembling your own. Since I am interested in computers I'd rather take the DIY approach in this field and save throwing my money to professionals in other fields I don't understand (like medicine).
This is a classic internet holy war topic. 
I skipped directly from Windows 3.11 to Linux when I built my first computer. I upgraded that machine with new parts every two years or so up until a few months ago when moved out of my house. At the beginning, in *general* I was happy, but the main hassles were lack of drivers and RPM dependency hell. I'm a programmer, so I could figure these out but it was still a pain. Fast forward and a lot of the worst issues are solved if you use a distro like Ubuntu. Sometimes though, I still pick up some piece of hardware and it doesn't work at all or it needs something done manually like downloading and compiling some code then editing a couple of text config files. As a result, I really can't recommend Linux *yet* for a daily user unless they're fairly sophisticated or they're going to be happy not adding any new hardware once they get a stable set up.
Personally, I use a MacBook Pro so I get the Unix underpinnings for work and I don't worry about some device not working with my computer. Lazy? Probably, but I just don't feel like spending hours trying to get some bluetooth headphones working even if I am eventually successful. My past two employers bought MBPs for me, so maybe I'd have a different opinion if I had to buy one myself.
I haven't used Windows in years, so I don't have a modern opinion there. DH has Windows 7 which he seems happy with, but he basically just uses it to browse the internet and scan documents. He hasn't gotten any viruses, but he has an IT background.
I skipped directly from Windows 3.11 to Linux when I built my first computer. I upgraded that machine with new parts every two years or so up until a few months ago when moved out of my house. At the beginning, in *general* I was happy, but the main hassles were lack of drivers and RPM dependency hell. I'm a programmer, so I could figure these out but it was still a pain. Fast forward and a lot of the worst issues are solved if you use a distro like Ubuntu. Sometimes though, I still pick up some piece of hardware and it doesn't work at all or it needs something done manually like downloading and compiling some code then editing a couple of text config files. As a result, I really can't recommend Linux *yet* for a daily user unless they're fairly sophisticated or they're going to be happy not adding any new hardware once they get a stable set up.
Personally, I use a MacBook Pro so I get the Unix underpinnings for work and I don't worry about some device not working with my computer. Lazy? Probably, but I just don't feel like spending hours trying to get some bluetooth headphones working even if I am eventually successful. My past two employers bought MBPs for me, so maybe I'd have a different opinion if I had to buy one myself.
I haven't used Windows in years, so I don't have a modern opinion there. DH has Windows 7 which he seems happy with, but he basically just uses it to browse the internet and scan documents. He hasn't gotten any viruses, but he has an IT background.
I used to build PC's ages ago, so no problems there.
I thought about it for awhile and I think it was Google Checkout itself, and they (Google) must be pretty PO'd, because it couldn't be just me, else it wouldn't have been handled so quickly. I have only used Google Checkout once, as stated, and they won't let me use it again unless I send in my DL and a utility, so, I am no longer concerned.
This is just a catalyst to another project more than anything else, a good example also to update passwords, which I am bad at.
I thought about it for awhile and I think it was Google Checkout itself, and they (Google) must be pretty PO'd, because it couldn't be just me, else it wouldn't have been handled so quickly. I have only used Google Checkout once, as stated, and they won't let me use it again unless I send in my DL and a utility, so, I am no longer concerned.
This is just a catalyst to another project more than anything else, a good example also to update passwords, which I am bad at.
Like JasonB, I value portability. Although desktop machines are usually cheap and easy to service/upgrade, I can't stand for something that dominates a whole desk (I'd go with the CRT monitor; they can be found for free) and cannot be easily packed up and taken with me on a bike ride.
What used to be IBM (and is now Lenovo) used to make really tough and powerful laptops. It remains to be seen how well Lenovo ThinkPads resist, but there are 5 year old ThinkPads that are still perfectly good. People still pay good money for T42 and T61 models (not quite 5 years old, but still).
As for software, older hardware means you can't follow every trend and run the shiniest OS. Now this will probably discredit my opinion to many of you, but I am a commandline junkie so all the shine and sparkle is worthless to me anyway. Get a bare-bones Linux distribution with gnome or KDE and for 90% of computer users, this will meet their requirements.
Now, if you're doing multimedia work or running beefy simulations, this won't do the trick, and maybe a Mac is more your speed.
PS:
Fuck Windows, of course.
What used to be IBM (and is now Lenovo) used to make really tough and powerful laptops. It remains to be seen how well Lenovo ThinkPads resist, but there are 5 year old ThinkPads that are still perfectly good. People still pay good money for T42 and T61 models (not quite 5 years old, but still).
As for software, older hardware means you can't follow every trend and run the shiniest OS. Now this will probably discredit my opinion to many of you, but I am a commandline junkie so all the shine and sparkle is worthless to me anyway. Get a bare-bones Linux distribution with gnome or KDE and for 90% of computer users, this will meet their requirements.
Now, if you're doing multimedia work or running beefy simulations, this won't do the trick, and maybe a Mac is more your speed.
PS:
Fuck Windows, of course.
Just spent a week on a laptop and I am so happy to be back on desktop... It's a fairly top end laptop but my usual habits were bringing it to a crawl. Multiple monitors, power to spare, big macro keyboard, 4000dpi mouse -now that is home!:)
To all the macbook people: why not get a more powerful ASUS (fewer failures as a manufacturer) for half the cost and hakintosh it?
Here's some experts on the Mac vs PC security. Breaks down fairly even... If you don't do stupid things a virus should never be an issue, on any platform.
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/pc-win ... ,9557.html
To all the macbook people: why not get a more powerful ASUS (fewer failures as a manufacturer) for half the cost and hakintosh it?
Here's some experts on the Mac vs PC security. Breaks down fairly even... If you don't do stupid things a virus should never be an issue, on any platform.
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/pc-win ... ,9557.html
Re: Apple v. PC...Desktop v. Laptop
in this days...
smartphone vs laptop vs eink reader vs tablet?
ur combination choice?
smartphone vs laptop vs eink reader vs tablet?
ur combination choice?
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2Birds1Stone
- Posts: 1610
- Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:20 am
- Location: Earth
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ScrewTheAverage
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:33 pm
- Location: Continual long-term travelling since 2016 (4 continents, 26 countries, ~80 cities)
- Contact:
Re: Apple v. PC...Desktop v. Laptop
Concurrently with pursing FI/RE we decided to travel overseas for a year in 2016/2017. However, before we left we were faced with the same question, should we a super powerful laptop for a premium ($3K+) or buy a bare bones ($400) system with the intent of upgrading after ~18 months and rinsing and repeating?
In the end we opted for a Lenovo T460s (newest model at the time we departed) that we could buy in a low end configuration and then buy aftermarket RAM, SSD, WiFI, and a backlit keyboard that we could upgrade to. We ended up saving about ~$1500 dollars with this method.
The key to be able to do this is to pick a model/chassis that doesn't have all the components soldered onto the motherboard. The downside with this approach is that you give up some of the volume and weight reduction of a fully soldered laptop.
Also, the great thing about buying a laptop that's not soldered is that you can upgrade it (within reason of course) for many years to come (at then reasonable prices). For example, three years after buying our laptops we upgraded from a 500GB SATA m.2 drive to 1TB NVMe m.2 drive for $109 (Samsung 970 Evo Plus). A similar drive in 2016 would have been ~$600!
In the end we opted for a Lenovo T460s (newest model at the time we departed) that we could buy in a low end configuration and then buy aftermarket RAM, SSD, WiFI, and a backlit keyboard that we could upgrade to. We ended up saving about ~$1500 dollars with this method.
The key to be able to do this is to pick a model/chassis that doesn't have all the components soldered onto the motherboard. The downside with this approach is that you give up some of the volume and weight reduction of a fully soldered laptop.
Also, the great thing about buying a laptop that's not soldered is that you can upgrade it (within reason of course) for many years to come (at then reasonable prices). For example, three years after buying our laptops we upgraded from a 500GB SATA m.2 drive to 1TB NVMe m.2 drive for $109 (Samsung 970 Evo Plus). A similar drive in 2016 would have been ~$600!
Last edited by ScrewTheAverage on Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Alphaville
- Posts: 3611
- Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:50 am
- Location: Quarantined
Re: Apple v. PC...Desktop v. Laptop
apple has always been more expensive, but costs amortize differently than winworld. it’s a higher upfront cost, but cost per use is not necessarily higher, might be lower.
if i’m not mistaken, jacob wrote the ERE book and started his website on a very old powerbook he kept around forever.
repairability has changed since those days though, so the upfont commitment needs to be larger, which raises the stakes.
apple might also be more ERE because longer hardware lifespan produces less actual physical garbage, plus the marginal bonus that the company cares a little more about toxic materials (although unrecyclable airpods are problematic and no computer manufacturer is an eco-saint)