Singledom v coupledom

Move along, nothing to see here!
Toska2
Posts: 420
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:51 pm

Re: Singledom v coupledom

Post by Toska2 »

Sorry to op for staying off track.

Ahhh. The ol' agency vs external circumstances debate. I believe in both. If BRUTE is up for a challenge, I got one.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9369
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Singledom v coupledom

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@enigmaT120: A safety pick is when you pick a spouse primarily based on factors similar to those utilized by Consumer Reports when rating vacuum cleaners. The problem that often results is that it is likely that romantic infatuation or strong sexual attraction to third party possessing other qualities valued but not included in list attached to secure shopping cart will eventually result in spite of practical success of safety pick. Of course, if both parties to the marriage make self-aware safety pick and are in open agreement about boundaries in relationship with others, then it might work out. I actually know of two marriages in which the wife was "in love" was husband, the husband made a "safety pick" and then had the raw nerve to fall in love with another woman while his "safety pick" was pregnant. What I am unable to comprehend is why neither of these men were able to comprehend why they were then subjected to slow-kill-bleed-dry-vengeance.

@distracted_at_work: Your experience is not unique. My beautiful 20 year old niece recently opened up an online dating account and received over 800 inquiries from men in the first 24 hours. Even moderately attractive middle-aged females like me are pretty well inundated when signaling availability in this modern milieu. I recommend that you make some effort towards polite conversation that is indicative of the fact that you actually read the female's profile, and you are not likely to be psycho-killer. But, after no more than 5 exchanges, you should very clearly request a date to meet in person in a manner that makes for a very easy response. Something like "Are you available sometime between noon and 5 this Saturday to meet ? Would Cafe Au Lait Cafe be a location that is convenient for you?"

It has been my experience that if a man is interested in seeing me again after Date Zero (first opportunity to actually interact in person), he will suggest that we continue after coffee by taking a walk or going out to dinner, or he will be very specific about when he will call me to arrange for next date. Second date is a bit too fast for suggesting anything that requires that female be alone with you on your turf, but there are plenty of fun, frugal alternatives such as bike ride, picnic, museum or free open air concert that would be acceptable. Third date you can offer to cook at your place, and provide cheap, creative entertainment. Main point I am trying to make here being that even if you want to straight-forwardly signal that you are a frugal homebody seeking a frugal homebody, you don't want to signal that you aren't willing to go to any trouble, or that you are "just" super-eager to get her alone in your lair.

@BRUTE: I think there is a lot of truth to your theory. Individuals vary in their need/desire for tribe, dyad and solitude. It has been my observation that many people seem to usually have their boots in one of these situations, while they fantasize about one of the other possibilities. The "hopeless romantic" alone in white-washed garret who prefers the fantasy of the ideal partner to the rough and tumble and humble reality of an actual partnership is only one possibility. Another example would be the hassled and harried mother of 5 who overtly professes deep longing to be alone in a tiny house in a tub full of bubbles next to a stack of Russian novels, but once again "forgets" to put in her diaphragm that evening.

slsdly
Posts: 380
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:04 am

Re: Singledom v coupledom

Post by slsdly »

Speaking as a straight man, if you have a remotely fragile ego, stay away from online dating. Nothing good will come of it. With a thousand dicks being waved at every woman, it is a recipe for disaster :P. Selling your wares in the real world will be more rewarding.

I've been soul searching on this topic for the last year. My conclusion is use of online dating and my personal happiness are inversely proportional. And what drives me to online dating is less about an intrinsic loneliness, but instead something distilled from the curated, picture perfect Facebook feeds by my predominantly coupled friends and family. The only time you hear them shoveling shit is when it went nuclear and now there is a breakup or divorce.

I've changed up my activities in the last year. Made some new friends. Gotten much more into exercise. I'm just going to stick with that for now. Good enough for old men in sexless relationships or divorcees, good enough for me right? I just skipped the middle step.

BRUTE
Posts: 3797
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:20 pm

Re: Singledom v coupledom

Post by BRUTE »

Toska2 wrote:
Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:30 pm
Ahhh. The ol' agency vs external circumstances debate. I believe in both. If BRUTE is up for a challenge, I got one.
?

distracted_at_work
Posts: 202
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:51 am

Re: Singledom v coupledom

Post by distracted_at_work »

I appreciate the feedback and sorry to Thrifty++ on derailing the original topic :oops: My 2 cents? Couple-dom with a frugal partner always superior economically. The reasons being, as you said, economies of scale.

@James_001. We are very similar I think.

@7Wannabe5. I was discussing the number of texts before asking for a date with roommates this weekend and 5 was the agreed maximum as well. Funny coincidence. Your poor niece. It's a crazy world out in online dating land, 1 guy in my house currently uses a Tinder bot that swipes right automatically and initiates basic conversation with matches. The bot will then notify him so he can take over the conversation. Personally, I've had my Tinder experience and I don't want to go back.

Somewhat hilariously, a day after posting, I got together with a girl that I had previously assumed was out of my league. Now I'm going through the texting rigamarole to try to get an actual date. Ugh. I much prefer the Riggerjack way that involves liquor and face-to-face meeting :lol:

Allagash
Posts: 128
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 9:34 pm
Location: WA State

Re: Singledom v coupledom

Post by Allagash »

I think society should be much more open to accepting people who choose to be single. A lot of people get into bad relationships because of social pressure that you MUST be in a relationship or married, or you are weird. The right person can be awesome, but they are really rare. Better to be single than with anyone else than someone really right.

Women can cause a lot of men really huge financial losses. My dad lost 55% of his net worth and his house late in his life in a divorce. A few of my friends who got divorced were pushed by their wives to spend a lot more money then they wanted to on a wedding and all the trappings of being married (nice house, car, vacations)...and came out of even childless marriages post divorce broke. My sisters ex husband had to pay a massive amount of money in child support for 15 years, way more then he would have paid raising them frugally.

I think a lot of guys on their own are naturally cheap and would be happy living in a dumpy apartment and rarely buying new anything, but they pursuit of women forces them to spend money because they feel they will be perceived as cheap or poor if they don't. And there is still this kind of unspoken thing that the guy should be paying for more shit in general than the lady should especially in the begining, but really throughout the relationship.

A lot of women want 100% equality (which they should), except when it comes to paying for shit, then they are happy to go back in time to 1800's customs! Women also need to initiate more shit in general vs. relying on the guy.... initiate dates, plan dates, make decisions.

The pros of being single are:
-less drama, emotional stuff, misunderstandings, miscommunication, brain damage
-maximum freedom to what you want, when you want, how you want, where you want
-ability to do things very spontaneously
-no nagging
-no money debates or issues with SO
-don't have to check in with anyone or ask permission to do anything

Cons of being single:
-coupling can REALLY reduce housing costs vs. single - basically splits rent/house payment in HALF if you have that type of arrangement (and half's utilities, internet). This is really significant to ERE. Housing costs IMO is the biggest cost reduction of coupling up
-it can be really nice to have someone to travel with, road trips with, celebrate holidays with...it gets old traveling alone (I'm over it)
-some loneliness (although probably 85% of the time I pretty happy being single)

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9369
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Singledom v coupledom

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Allagash wrote:Women also need to initiate more shit in general vs. relying on the guy.... initiate dates, plan dates, make decisions.

I think most women would be happy to do this if it worked, but it just plain doesn't most of the time. I once read that the rule of thumb in general for initiating with men is 1/3 of the time, more than that and they feel controlled/pressured/demanded-upon/etc... and I have been in relationship with men who forthrightly informed me that their true preference is 0.

Also, in online dating setting, I have had no success on the few occasions I have contacted men first, even though I always had plenty of equally attractive men contacting me. In fact, overall, I would go so far as to say that I can't think of a single instance in which being the one to initiate anything with a man proved to be in long-run alignment with my self-interest, and every time I have told myself something like "Eh, why bother?", that has been a good decision.

Anyways, doesn't really matter what I (or any other woman) thinks, because it's all the other guys who are choosing to intiate, etc. you need to convince. Maybe you could all go on strike? :lol:

Allagash
Posts: 128
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 9:34 pm
Location: WA State

Re: Singledom v coupledom

Post by Allagash »

You make some good points, probably most guys aren't ready for that type of initiation.

I've had no prob going out with ladies who initiated contact first online dating. And I love it when they plan dates, but that's just me. It gets so tiring be expected to think up the first half dozen dates and choose places. Plus women are better at that stuff anyway.

However I have to say the nice thing when I choose a date is it is very strategically planned for me to spend the least amount of money possible :D :D :D When I leave it up to the women 9X out of 10 there is expensive stuff involved.

Speaking of dating and being a ERE type. A tough thing in the dating world is "perception" of wealth and success. I live in a very expensive part of the US where there are a lot of wealthy successful people and tons of high paying corporate rat race jobs. To save money, I live in a pretty average small apartment in average suburb with a dated looking 35 year old kitchen and bathroom, never been updated (and it's still expensive as shit!). No matter who you date, you get judged on where you live. I probably have 2X-10X+ the net worth of most women I date, but they can't "see" net worth, they just see the apartment, so they assume you don't have much money and aren't that successful since you are renting a dated apartment and hang out at home a lot not working. And I don't care what anybody says, no matter how "spiritual" someone is or non-materialistic, there are still judgement made. I know I do not want to date a broke chick, If I do find a SO, I would love to get someone with close to my net worth (or at least a solid chunk of money in the bank and no debt), that would make ERE sooooo much easier and more fun! So what I am trying to say, is it is tough to get past the initial perception of women when you are a ERE "all cattle and no hat" type of guy, but they are dating a lot of "big hat and no cattle" types. Someone can appear very wealthy and successful with a nice car and sweet house and do better with the ladies, but really be broke. And the lady will not know that guys balance sheet for a while. The illusion he puts on of wealth can deceive for a good bit of time. It's almost like you need to bring your personal balance sheets on the fist dates!

So I need to find that treasure trove of good looking, crunchy, earthy, ERE type women who have squirreled away a nice chunk of change like I have.

Dragline
Posts: 4436
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:50 am

Re: Singledom v coupledom

Post by Dragline »

I think you have a rule in your head that says don't trust women no matter what. Which means you'll generally attract women who don't trust men and see relationships as purely transactional the way you do. Those kind of relationships almost never last.

thrifty++
Posts: 1171
Joined: Sat May 23, 2015 3:46 pm

Re: Singledom v coupledom

Post by thrifty++ »

@Allagash. It sounds like you are in a shitty headspace ATM. I feel sorry for you.

It sounds like you haven't been meeting the right women. Some will be as you describe but I think that there are many who will not. Sounds like you might not have been going to the right places.

You should get back on meetup.com to enter some groups to meet a few women. Pick the right kind of groups. I think ones where you might meet open minded women are groups like for example: yoga meeting groups (especially free ones), spiritual discussion groups, philosophy dinners, board games and cards meetups, cinema meetups. etc. And I definitely think you must start a personal finance meetup!

And since you have so much free time have you thought about setting up some kind of business? In a company structure and with stuff all capital to prevent risking your stash of course. Sounds like you have some great skills to contribute to something given your background. Then you will have a bit of a cash buffer to splash out a little bit more. One of the reasons I want to be FI is for entrepreneurship possibilities without needing to worry about a salary income.

Also Seattle sounds grossly overpriced IMO. The weather is shit and its not that great. I have recently met two people from there who have moved here and who described rental prices to me and I was shocked. None of this is very ERE friendly and there are better places to live. Maybe you should think about moving somewhere since you are not tied to that location. Even Portland sounds better and is not that far to go. Supposed to be heaps of alternative types from what I understand, the cliche anyways. Plus I have heard it is much cheaper.

IlliniDave
Posts: 3845
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:46 pm

Re: Singledom v coupledom

Post by IlliniDave »

No matter who you date, you get judged on where you live. I probably have 2X-10X+ the net worth of most women I date, but they can't "see" net worth, they just see the apartment, so they assume you don't have much money and aren't that successful since you are renting a dated apartment and hang out at home a lot not working. And I don't care what anybody says, no matter how "spiritual" someone is or non-materialistic, there are still judgement made.
This was the secret sauce to my success the first 5-7 years after I became single again. Different details, but nothing about me gave an appearance of material success, and I have always tended to downplay my job/profession. Possibly saved me from the quick remarriage pitfall a lot of people get into (though sometimes those are successful). Unfortunately now that word's getting out I'm in a position to retire early, I'm less invisible.

I couldn't tell if you were being a little tongue-in-cheek or if you are that cynical about the whole prospect of the human mating ritual. It's difficult and full of frustration and tough-to-meet expectations for both genders. My standard reply is to say to get yourself into a solo happy place before giving much thought to dating. If you start there I think you'll find situations will arise that are more to your liking. Starting off in a defensive posture usually isn't good. And when someday you're on the hook to come up with ideas, suggest the kind of things you like and are comfortable with. Better to sort out incompatibilities from the get-go rather than trying to pretend you are someone you're not.

classical_Liberal
Posts: 2283
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2016 6:05 am

Re: Singledom v coupledom

Post by classical_Liberal »

...
Last edited by classical_Liberal on Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Farm_or
Posts: 412
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 8:57 am
Contact:

Re: Singledom v coupledom

Post by Farm_or »

Modesty will never be hip. I can't count how many times that I have met shallow people who misjudged me because I didn't play the shiny flair peacock.

Far better to be true to yourself. Otherwise, you will end up attracting attention, but ultimately unsavory catches.

"Even a good thing is not as good as nothing." Especially when you are considering comingling with another human being. I am not saying that relationship doesn't work, but look at the numbers and odds. Out of ten people that you know, nine are typical consumerism driven robots. Do you want to kiss nine toads?

I think it is better to be true to yourself, have patience and try to become the type of person that you want to find. When you progress in that endeavor you are more likely to attract the right person.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9369
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Singledom v coupledom

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Dragline wrote:I think you have a rule in your head that says don't trust women no matter what. Which means you'll generally attract women who don't trust men and see relationships as purely transactional the way you do. Those kind of relationships almost never last.
I agree if "transaction" is to be narrowly defined as "financial transactional", but disagree otherwise. The simple reason why financial transaction analysis fails when applied to long term relationship contract is that the vast majority of human beings hold more value in themselves than in their financial accounts. For simple instance, let's say I had to choose between a man whose conversation bored me vs. a man whose conversation was very interesting and amusing. Even at my advanced courting age of 52, that might amount to a total of 20,000 hours of tolerating dull vs.enjoying being stimulated. If I can sell my willingness to tolerate dull on the open employment market (maybe proof-reading tax documents) for $15/hr. then in order to ensure commiserate future happiness level when committing to the relationship with the dull man vs. the interesting man would require future compensation (in some form) of approximately $300,000!!!

@Allagash:

I think the first thing you need to decide is whether you are just dating or dating with intent to find SO. If you are just dating, you just need to go to the trouble of figuring out how to make offer of entertainment that is more appealing than other opportunities immediately present to the female. If what you choose to offer falls into the category of something she could as readily do by herself or with a female friend, but you are willing to pay, then that is the pattern of interaction you will be creating. There is nothing wrong with this if a man truly wishes to market himself primarily on the basis of his ability to earn money, because this is something he truly values about himself. This isn't even a terrible tactic in a pinch if you are man seeking ERE and you just want a date for the evening. However, it is a lousy strategy to pursue if you are a man seeking ERE who is dating with intent to find SO.

A quick list of non-financial qualities that would sell well on the general female market would be physical attractiveness and vigor, intelligence and intellect, charm and humor, talent and skills, kindness and courtesy, integrity and reliability. Also, you should bear in mind that what women who like men like about men is that they are men. On any given evening that I am offered the choice between going to see "Revenge of the Nerds" and eat popcorn at the revival budget theater with a female friend or a date, the $6 I might have to throw down for my own ticket and treat is going to be far less of a deciding factor than the fact that I have never had a female friend who could throw me up on a counter top.

Okay, given what I explained above with easy math, I hope you can now see how peevish it would be to worry about worst-case scenario loss of 50% of your current financial net worth, when negotiating with a female for major, much larger and more valuable, investment of her life-energy, time and attention in the future. What you need to figure out is how to best convey your version of "What next?" or major-relationship-mission-statement to potential SO, because you are not offering the conventional script. Kind of like you are some young guy in 1840 trying to convince a young woman to leave behind her piano, her Ladies Literary Society Meetings, and her family to accompany you on a wagon train trip to homestead out West. It actually might be more difficult to convince a young woman who had already raised her own stake and made her own plans for the future "out West" or "alternative to conventional script", to alter them in accordance with yours. IOW, when you imagine a very decisive woman with a great deal of initiative, you might consider the maxim "Be careful what you wish for or you will surely get it." ;)

Post Reply