We grow up being indoctrinated by our school systems, families, and national cultures. It's the water we all swim around in. Judging by my observations of this forum, the ERE crowd has belief systems and frameworks that deviate from the masses fairly frequently. How did you do it? What parts of this indoctrination have been...
-this first
-the hardest
-the most important
...for you to reevaluate and reinvent in your own life?
For me, a big moment was towards the end of college when, after years of becoming more and more serious about my religion, I experienced a devastating crisis of faith which snowballed into me reevaluating many common suppositions of my life.
One thing I think is really difficult for me to shake is this well-ingrained (think childhood/elementary education) idea that I need to 'follow the rules'*, and that I give 'following the rules' an unnecessarily moral dimension. Intellectually, I know sometimes that I'm being ridiculous about it, but it's just so hard to relax about it. (Is that an INTJ thing? ...or just me?)
*mostly I'm referring to 'rules' like minor traffic laws (full stop at signs, using indicator, etc.- that kind of thing) - ironically I'm pretty good at disregarding certain things that your 'supposed to do' (e.g. highfalutin manners).
What have you had to unlearn to grow?
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black_son_of_gray
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Re: What have you had to unlearn to grow?
all of it. everything is a lie.
Re: What have you had to unlearn to grow?
Not everything. Though it is best to assume that to begin with.BRUTE wrote:all of it. everything is a lie.
Re: What have you had to unlearn to grow?
I think the definition of success. If you are a 'high achiever', then it takes a while to work out you are just ticking boxes set by someone else, and that isn't necessarily how you want to spend your time. You can in effect find out you have been climbing the wrong ladder. Examples would be getting high marks in school, then doing whatever your bosses say you have to do at work. You are pleasing people, having to beat others in whatever game you are playing with your IQ and work ethic.
It is of course a trap. The best way to spend a sunny day is not necessarily in the library studying, or at the office working. You don't have to beat everyone at whatever cost. What is the point?
(Fucking and drinking in the sun are two things I would rather do, but in fact they are beyond counting).
I think an ego readjustment is also in order. Both on the superior IQ makes a superior person side of things, and on the I've got a lot of cash/stuff/flash job side of things. People here seem to work out the second, sort of, but clearly struggle with the first. A classic sad nerd trap. Life is indeed so much much more than that and I wonder sometimes if people have worked that out for all of their brains.
Sort of like when you see a fat bloke wearing a tshirt that says "Programming is better than sex". Dude, it isn't. You're just a sad motherfucker.
I might go back to the need for cash/stuff as status thing. People here I respect seem to still need to chase cash. Good for them, but I wonder really, as weird as they are, am I even weirder as I seem oddly content with what I have. I really would prefer to spend my days pottering around and not obsessing over my next dollar. I can recall when I was the guy earning it, I would look on low earners with a mixture of disdain and pity. Now, it is the other way around. You did what today? You're crazy or just grossly inefficient.
Speaking of inefficiency, that's something I had to learn to recognise. I was at a BBQ on the weekend, and the host, who works so hard he only has 3 days to spend in Australia having flown from Ireland (?), was sort of boasting that his hard working friend had just bought a car for 300,000 EURO - the only one of its kind in Ireland. This, to my friend, was clearly a good thing.
I'm not sure if that really would have impressed me as a young guy, but to the new me it was almost sickening. It's sort of like saying he had bought a $200,000 water making machine instead of using the tap. We paid about 3000 Euro for our car. It is a little beauty. I can't imagine for a second why you would want to pour all of that extra cash down the drain. It surely is one of the least optimal ways to solve the transport problem.
Same too with housing - you're paying for all that space? Why???? And all sorts of things. Rich people who work all the time see such behaviour as a sign of success - I now see it as a sign of failure, or at least brain failure. Obviously something has changed with me there.
It is of course a trap. The best way to spend a sunny day is not necessarily in the library studying, or at the office working. You don't have to beat everyone at whatever cost. What is the point?
(Fucking and drinking in the sun are two things I would rather do, but in fact they are beyond counting).
I think an ego readjustment is also in order. Both on the superior IQ makes a superior person side of things, and on the I've got a lot of cash/stuff/flash job side of things. People here seem to work out the second, sort of, but clearly struggle with the first. A classic sad nerd trap. Life is indeed so much much more than that and I wonder sometimes if people have worked that out for all of their brains.
Sort of like when you see a fat bloke wearing a tshirt that says "Programming is better than sex". Dude, it isn't. You're just a sad motherfucker.
I might go back to the need for cash/stuff as status thing. People here I respect seem to still need to chase cash. Good for them, but I wonder really, as weird as they are, am I even weirder as I seem oddly content with what I have. I really would prefer to spend my days pottering around and not obsessing over my next dollar. I can recall when I was the guy earning it, I would look on low earners with a mixture of disdain and pity. Now, it is the other way around. You did what today? You're crazy or just grossly inefficient.
Speaking of inefficiency, that's something I had to learn to recognise. I was at a BBQ on the weekend, and the host, who works so hard he only has 3 days to spend in Australia having flown from Ireland (?), was sort of boasting that his hard working friend had just bought a car for 300,000 EURO - the only one of its kind in Ireland. This, to my friend, was clearly a good thing.
I'm not sure if that really would have impressed me as a young guy, but to the new me it was almost sickening. It's sort of like saying he had bought a $200,000 water making machine instead of using the tap. We paid about 3000 Euro for our car. It is a little beauty. I can't imagine for a second why you would want to pour all of that extra cash down the drain. It surely is one of the least optimal ways to solve the transport problem.
Same too with housing - you're paying for all that space? Why???? And all sorts of things. Rich people who work all the time see such behaviour as a sign of success - I now see it as a sign of failure, or at least brain failure. Obviously something has changed with me there.
Re: What have you had to unlearn to grow?
1 All religions are the same/teach the same thing
2 Belonging to a certain institution (school, college, university, board,...) is important/makes a difference.
An institution is an elongated shadow of a person. ~Emerson.
...Which will be useless for you if have different plans for yourself and don't want to follow someone else's shadow.
3 Rules.
Rules exist to serve the people who follow them. People don't exist for the sake of following rules.
4 Age is indicative of experience/knowledge.
5 I'm not sophisticated. I gave those status-oriented people the benefit of the doubt since I didn't know any better. Still not sure how/why it matters.
2 Belonging to a certain institution (school, college, university, board,...) is important/makes a difference.
An institution is an elongated shadow of a person. ~Emerson.
...Which will be useless for you if have different plans for yourself and don't want to follow someone else's shadow.
3 Rules.
Rules exist to serve the people who follow them. People don't exist for the sake of following rules.
4 Age is indicative of experience/knowledge.
5 I'm not sophisticated. I gave those status-oriented people the benefit of the doubt since I didn't know any better. Still not sure how/why it matters.
Re: What have you had to unlearn to grow?
An IxTJ thing. You're invested in impersonal, public frameworks (Te). That's how you categorize and Judge the information you gather. Normal for you. Healthy to question it, though.black_son_of_gray wrote:One thing I think is really difficult for me to shake is this well-ingrained (think childhood/elementary education) idea that I need to 'follow the rules'*, and that I give 'following the rules' an unnecessarily moral dimension. Intellectually, I know sometimes that I'm being ridiculous about it, but it's just so hard to relax about it. (Is that an INTJ thing? ...or just me?)
This is because highfalutin manners are an IxFJ problem. I'm one of these. Manners and morality are Fe concerns. Unless we've been persuaded that rules like stop signs have a moral dimension, we tend not to care about those in themselves. But we do care about manners because they're a proven pathway to not giving offense, which we care about very much. My POV: stopping for others at stop signs is polite. So, completely different value systems at work, although we both stop at stop signs. Unless I'm the only one around, and there's no one to be polite to.black_son_of_gray wrote:*mostly I'm referring to 'rules' like minor traffic laws (full stop at signs, using indicator, etc.- that kind of thing) - ironically I'm pretty good at disregarding certain things that your 'supposed to do' (e.g. highfalutin manners).
I think the biggest thing I've had to do to "unlearn" is to learn more frameworks. Myers Briggs is a good example of this. Once I realized there were several different lenses through which to view any facts and situations I encountered, I started seeing life in new ways. This led to deliberately picking the lenses that were most effective for me. I didn't so much unlearn as step away from (other people's) ineffective ways of seeing, and Judging, life. In my case, the facts and situations themselves were rarely in doubt. What wasn't working, or wasn't a good fit for me, was the way I was processing those.
I find it illuminating and humbling to hang out here because questions like this one happen constantly.
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IlliniDave
- Posts: 3876
- Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:46 pm
Re: What have you had to unlearn to grow?
For me it was more the opposite. It took really understanding what I was taught as a kid to solidify a foundation for "success".
To me it feels like "my life" is always evolving so it's hard to pin down a point where it was reinvented.
The first was the various ideas related to "money doesn't grow on trees". Understanding that there will come a time when I can no longer show up to work and get a paycheck for it got me started on the path of optimizing what I do with my income from a "whole life" perspective. The optimization process was gradual and is still ongoing. It has proved to be liberating.
It might be too soon to tell but the most important might be accepting the old mantra that money doesn't buy happiness in a deeper way. It was something I always "knew" intellectually and believed, but a lot of materialism still crept into my life. It took reading YMOYL during a receptive period and trying out their system of evaluating every expenditure in terms of it's contribution to quality of life to internalize that. As a brash youngster I came up with a notion of success that was in many ways just to be different from my parents and grandparents economically. Through trial-end-error and the YMOYL mechanism I learned that for me simpler/lower consumption not only didn't cause abject misery, but improved well-being. So now I find my lifestyle increasingly resembles that of my grandparents especially.
The hardest? I dunno.
To me it feels like "my life" is always evolving so it's hard to pin down a point where it was reinvented.
The first was the various ideas related to "money doesn't grow on trees". Understanding that there will come a time when I can no longer show up to work and get a paycheck for it got me started on the path of optimizing what I do with my income from a "whole life" perspective. The optimization process was gradual and is still ongoing. It has proved to be liberating.
It might be too soon to tell but the most important might be accepting the old mantra that money doesn't buy happiness in a deeper way. It was something I always "knew" intellectually and believed, but a lot of materialism still crept into my life. It took reading YMOYL during a receptive period and trying out their system of evaluating every expenditure in terms of it's contribution to quality of life to internalize that. As a brash youngster I came up with a notion of success that was in many ways just to be different from my parents and grandparents economically. Through trial-end-error and the YMOYL mechanism I learned that for me simpler/lower consumption not only didn't cause abject misery, but improved well-being. So now I find my lifestyle increasingly resembles that of my grandparents especially.
The hardest? I dunno.
Re: What have you had to unlearn to grow?
I personally wouldn't really care to have sex for more than 5-10 min, 2-3 times a day. Anymore than that and I would rather be doing several other things such as reading or writing. These are things that I can do for several hours without boredom. If I had to choose a life without sex or without reading and writing, I would without hesitation choose no sex. Perhaps I have a low sex drive.Did wrote: Sort of like when you see a fat bloke wearing a tshirt that says "Programming is better than sex". Dude, it isn't. You're just a sad motherfucker.
Re: What have you had to unlearn to grow?
Yes, that's the biggest one. You can never be truly free if you are just reflexively applying metrics provided by others. But it takes conscious effort, because we are wired to seek measuring sticks and compare ourselves.Did wrote:I think the definition of success. If you are a 'high achiever', then it takes a while to work out you are just ticking boxes set by someone else, and that isn't necessarily how you want to spend your time. You can in effect find out you have been climbing the wrong ladder. Examples would be getting high marks in school, then doing whatever your bosses say you have to do at work. You are pleasing people, having to beat others in whatever game you are playing with your IQ and work ethic.
It is of course a trap. The best way to spend a sunny day is not necessarily in the library studying, or at the office working. You don't have to beat everyone at whatever cost. What is the point?
Reminds me of my favorite Thoreau quote: "If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away."
I suppose a corollary rule to unlearn is that we should not attempt to do things that we are not likely to excel at. We might enjoy/find value in them anyway even if not objectively very "successful" at them. And we might become good at them long-term.
"You should always finish what you start" is also another one to dump.
And of course my favorite bugaboo: "Consistency is a virtue for consistency's sake alone."
Re: What have you had to unlearn to grow?
fiby41 wrote:1 All religions are the same/teach the same thing
2 Belonging to a certain institution (school, college, university, board,...) is important/makes a difference.
An institution is an elongated shadow of a person. ~Emerson.
...Which will be useless for you if have different plans for yourself and don't want to follow someone else's shadow.
3 Rules.
Rules exist to serve the people who follow them. People don't exist for the sake of following rules.
These.
I would also add to that a good healthy questioning of 'progress' in any form. Progress is something that seems to happen naturally on its own accord if you are not looking for it, but are open to it and embrace the growth. If you are actively seeking it I really don't think it can be counted on. You might even regress.
I had a one on one meeting with my supervisor not even an hour ago about this very topic. Development plans, where do you want to be in 3 years, "we need to continually improve". It's just bullshit. I've gotten decent at pushing back though. Why can't I just be the best in my current role, especially if I enjoy the work? Stop pushing me to progress!
Re: What have you had to unlearn to grow?
That is a good one. My dad was always disappointed when I quit stuff like sports, clubs, etc.. (I use to quit all the time, now I am better at not starting things).Dragline wrote:"You should always finish what you start" is also another one to dump.
Re: What have you had to unlearn to grow?
Feminism, agriculture, shoe-tying, toothpaste, neoclassical economic theory, niceness, long division, fellatio, scrambled eggs, and push-ups.
Re: What have you had to unlearn to grow?
@7Wannabe5
Why unlearn long division?
Why unlearn long division?
Re: What have you had to unlearn to grow?
brute approves of scrambled eggs and push-ups. toothpaste too, tastes great.
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enigmaT120
- Posts: 1240
- Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:14 pm
- Location: Falls City, OR
Re: What have you had to unlearn to grow?
Bu bu but,,, there's creditable evidence!BRUTE wrote:all of it. everything is a lie.
Re: What have you had to unlearn to grow?
I thought this fit here:
My entrance into the world of so-called “social problems”
Must be with quiet laughter, or not at all.
The hollow men of anger and bitterness
The bountiful ladies of righteous degradation
All must be left to a bygone age.
And the purpose of history is to provide a receptacle
For all those myths and oddments
Which oddly we have acquired
And from which we would become unburdened
To create a newer world
To translate the future into the past.
We have no need of false revolutions
In a world where categories tend to tyrannize our minds
And hang our wills up on narrow pegs.
It is well at every given moment to seek the limits in our lives.
And once those limits are understood
To understand that limitations no longer exist.
Earth could be fair. And you and I must be free
Not to save the world in a glorious crusade
Not to kill ourselves with a nameless gnawing pain
But to practice with all the skill of our being
The art of making possible.
My entrance into the world of so-called “social problems”
Must be with quiet laughter, or not at all.
The hollow men of anger and bitterness
The bountiful ladies of righteous degradation
All must be left to a bygone age.
And the purpose of history is to provide a receptacle
For all those myths and oddments
Which oddly we have acquired
And from which we would become unburdened
To create a newer world
To translate the future into the past.
We have no need of false revolutions
In a world where categories tend to tyrannize our minds
And hang our wills up on narrow pegs.
It is well at every given moment to seek the limits in our lives.
And once those limits are understood
To understand that limitations no longer exist.
Earth could be fair. And you and I must be free
Not to save the world in a glorious crusade
Not to kill ourselves with a nameless gnawing pain
But to practice with all the skill of our being
The art of making possible.
Re: What have you had to unlearn to grow?
@Ego: Damn. That might be the saddest thing I've read this year. I am now going to have to have a drink or three and listen to the entire Joni Mitchell "Clouds" album. I'm not even joking. Damn.
Re: What have you had to unlearn to grow?
Yeah, I probably wouldn't use that in a commencement speech. Even if my friend wrote it.
Boomers . . .
Boomers . . .
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jacob
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Re: What have you had to unlearn to grow?
Cowards! 
I would use this in chapter one, two, and three of an independent book publication. Then follow up in chapters four, five, six, and seven.
I would use this in chapter one, two, and three of an independent book publication. Then follow up in chapters four, five, six, and seven.
Re: What have you had to unlearn to grow?
No... NO!!!!7Wannabe5 wrote:....fellatio....