Alternate strategies/solutions to marshmallow test

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7Wannabe5
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Alternate strategies/solutions to marshmallow test

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Okay, so the marshmallow test places an 8 year old child in a white cubicle with a tempting marshmallow, a timer, and a promise of future gains for demonstration of self-discipline. Since we are not 8 year old children in cubicles, what are some possible alternate strategies or solutions to the marshmallow test?

For instance, the anti-authoritarian solution, in which the 8 year old child is transformed into somebody capable of saying "Fuck you and your bag of marshmallows." and exiting the test cubicle.

Or, the solution in which the 8 year old child is transformed into somebody who is capable of saying "Uh-huh. I got some marshmallows I might or might not share myself, Dr. Labcoat. Why don't you bring that bag a little closer, and I'll show you."

Or, the solution in which the 8 year old child is transformed into somebody who is capable of grabbing Dr. Labcoat by the throat, slamming his head down on the table, and taking the entire bag of marshmallows for himself.

IOW, does the marshmallow test implicitly confuse natural consequences with societal training?

enigmaT120
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Re: Alternate strategies/solutions to marshmallow test

Post by enigmaT120 »

I can't quite make myself believe in psychology.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Alternate strategies/solutions to marshmallow test

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Yeah, like it's only maybe 2 levels above gossip. Probably more truth about human dynamics to be found in one chapter of "Bleak House" than a whole toppling stack of "Psychology Today."

daylen
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Re: Alternate strategies/solutions to marshmallow test

Post by daylen »

The psychological research outlined in "Thinking, Fast and Slow" was insightful for me at least.

Though what do you expect? A field that tries to model the most complex thing that we know of with very small data (I'm sorry psychologist... but 1000 data points is not big data :lol: ).

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Alternate strategies/solutions to marshmallow test

Post by ThisDinosaur »

The marshmallow test demonstrates that IQ is less predictive of future academic success than the ability to delay gratification. It doesn't tell you whether delaying gratification is a learned behavior vs. an innate characteristic vs. a trait that appears at a variable point in maturity.
As a parent, I really want it to be coachable because I have relatives in all four quadrants of the intelligence vs. financial success grid.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Alternate strategies/solutions to marshmallow test

Post by ThisDinosaur »

Rereading the OP; this is actually a question about thinking outside of the box. How about this:
Enter the study. Eat the marshmallow. Reenter the study tomorrow under a different name. Eat another marshmallow. Reenter study day 3 under several different assumed names and bring a box of disguises.

Another one:
Enter the study. Wait...pocket both marshmallows. Pay two of your most disciplined friends one marshmallow each to enter the study and bring you two marshmallows each tomorrow. You will double your total marshmallow investment daily less any defaults.

enigmaT120
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Re: Alternate strategies/solutions to marshmallow test

Post by enigmaT120 »

ThisDinosaur wrote:Another one:
Enter the study. Wait...pocket both marshmallows. Pay two of your most disciplined friends one marshmallow each to enter the study and bring you two marshmallows each tomorrow. You will double your total marshmallow investment daily less any defaults.
They will not only default, they will each find two more friends and attempt to start a pyramid scheme.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Alternate strategies/solutions to marshmallow test

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@ThisDinosaur: Exactly. Either what are some non-standard winning solutions, or how can the test be transcended or trashed? How would a Mafia Strong Arm perform? How would Buddha perform? How would Alex DeLarge perform?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arijbOzqM-E

BRUTE
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Re: Alternate strategies/solutions to marshmallow test

Post by BRUTE »

don't eat any marshmallows. don't get diabetes.

Miss Lonelyhearts
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Re: Alternate strategies/solutions to marshmallow test

Post by Miss Lonelyhearts »

Decline the marshmallow. Eat the examiner.

IlliniDave
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Re: Alternate strategies/solutions to marshmallow test

Post by IlliniDave »

I didn't think there was a won/loss aspect to the MM test, just a predictor of future behavior as a function of willingness to control impulses for a delayed payoff.

If you want your own, or some other, behavior to be seen as "best", I would suggest taking a page from Captain James T Kirk. Rewrite the rules. Define "the best" as whatever you want it to be.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Alternate strategies/solutions to marshmallow test

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@IlliniDave: Not eating the marshmallow was fairly well correlated with later SAT scores. The ability or perspective to "rewrite the rules" is what I was getting at. For obvious instance, this forum is full of people re-writing the rules for retirement. If one marshmallow is enough, and you are free to pocket it and walk away from the table, then there is little to be gained by waiting around to earn the second marshmallow. OTOH, if pocketing the second marshmallow is proof that you are able to win the game then the challenge can go on and on.

I was also trying to remember what methods I actually used to try to get candy or money for the ice cream truck when I was a child. I clearly remember getting busted for running an art gallery out of the garage with my sister, because we charged the other kids for the use of crayons and paper to make their art work, and then we charged the neighborhood mothers to purchase the artwork, and apparently that was "wrong." So, it doesn't take very long for somebody destined to get a high SAT score to come up with alternate schemes. Of course, I read "The Great Brain" series of books by Fitzgerald and watched episodes of "I Love Lucy" at a very early age, so I can't even remember not knowing the concept of "scheme", as opposed to "plan" or "strategy." Since I had younger sisters who would sometimes heed my directions, I think "co-operative begging" was one of my earliest successful schemes. Shove all the toys under the beds, hide them with the bed skirt, and then when Daddy comes home we will show him what a good job we did cleaning our rooms, and then we will smile and say "please" all at the same time when we ask for the candy. Remember DON'T whine. The amazing thing was when we discovered that the daughters of a couple our parents drank cocktails with ran the exact same scheme!

So, this goes some way towards explaining the other positive correlation with marshmallow test results which was "presence of father in home." You can't do well on the marshmallow test if you don't have some previously set precedent for respecting and trusting authority. My new very wealthy friend in his 70s was telling me about his frustrations trying to help the children of a drug-addicted relative of his girlfriend. If he brought them groceries they would instantly vaporize because they didn't really believe that he would bring groceries again. Not unlike how you have to have some level of trust in the SWR to feel secure storing your money in the stock market. The marshmallow test is about trust in social contract as much as it is about ability to delay gratification.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Alternate strategies/solutions to marshmallow test

Post by ThisDinosaur »

Some of you are "rewriting the rules." I am just stealing all of your best ideas for myself, thanks. I'd argue that "rewriting the rules" is less important than "saving for the second marshmallow." ERE is about preparing for the future using current resources, which most consumers just don't do. Entrepreneurship, which you (7WB5) obviously posses, may require outside the box thinking, though. That will likely get you there faster.

Also, the Buddha's performance on the marshmallow test would be indistinguishable to that of 8 yo ThisDinosaur. Because the Buddha has trained himself to want nothing, and I never really liked marshmallows.

IlliniDave
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Re: Alternate strategies/solutions to marshmallow test

Post by IlliniDave »

7Wannabe5,

Yeah, there was that correlation, and ultimate education level, income, and some other things, IIRC, typically associated with the conventional definitions of success. I don't know if any sort of causality was ever established. I don't know if the study examined the reasons the kids who didn't wait didn't wait. I can see where mistrust of a society and lack of respect for authority would probably figure negatively in achieving the society's notions of success, and encourage a "get it while the getting's good" behavior. Dunno if that's the same as instant gratification or not, but it seems more of a calculated response a perceived future loss of what's there now than it does an irrepressible urge.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Alternate strategies/solutions to marshmallow test

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

True. Sometimes, given the situation or prior experience, taking or consuming what is available in the present rather than conserving or investing resources, could be the intelligent decision. Other times, an individual might just be giving into an irrepressible urge. But, as ThisDinosaur noted, he never really liked marshmallows, so there wouldn't have been much of an urge to repress. That's how I am with beer and marijuana and most of what they sell at the suburban mall (different story when I was 14.) But, other stuff, not so much...So, maybe the trick is to only have irrepressible urges that are in reasonable alignment with wealth, health and personal fulfillment? A person with no urges whatsoever would obviously be severely clinically depressed, but what happens if you have strong urges and you keep repressing them? Does it pile up into a big bellyful of urge, or does it slowly dissipate, like a helium balloon held in check by a ceiling? Or is it always the case that short-term urge repression equals hope, or rational expectation, of greater long-term urge fulfillment?

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Alternate strategies/solutions to marshmallow test

Post by ThisDinosaur »

I try not to read too deeply into psychology study conclusions. Aside from the Reproducibility scandal, there is something concerning about generalizing human behavior based on small studies with highly unusual circumstances.

On the other hand, the face narrative of the marshmallows study seems legit to me, anecdotally. Because i consider myself relatively high in self discipline. Yes, as IlliniDave points out, other correlations may be more relevant (or equally irrelevant.) But weighting long term goals greater than short term goals shows a direct path through ambition, to self discipline and into accomplishment. (In fact, it's so obvious that it's probably wrong.)

7Wannabe5
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Re: Alternate strategies/solutions to marshmallow test

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

ThisDinosaur: But weighting long term goals greater than short term goals shows a direct path through ambition, to self discipline and into accomplishment. (In fact, it's so obvious that it's probably wrong.)
Right. But isn't it often also true that as rational, ambitious, moderately disciplined/clever adults we are frequently weighing one long term goal vs. another long term goal? Simple, well-known example being the conflict people often feel between devoting time and energy to career vs. family. Does every kid who passes the marshmallow test end up with the same market basket of success?

OTOH, it does seem to me that there is something in the marshmallow test that does model natural consequences as well as societal consequences. Nature tends towards growth. If you only eat half of your potatoes each year, and keep planting the other half, you will eventually end up with a whole lot of potatoes. Dr. Labcoat is only attempting to make linear what Mother Nature makes more complex.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Alternate strategies/solutions to marshmallow test

Post by ThisDinosaur »

What influences a person's decision between two long term choices? That's way more individual than anything measurable in a small group of hungry third graders. For most of these kids with high GPAs and SAT scores, I don't think you can rule out the people-pleasing angle. There is some reinforcement involved in your authority figures telling you what a great job you are doing. Broadly speaking, people like encouragement. And its easier to connect tonight's homework with a pat on the back in 9 weeks, than it is to connect that homework with a paid off house in 2.5 decades. Its still a matter of delayed gratification, but the degree of need for approval may be a relevant confounding factor.

I mentioned in another thread recently that I find it necessary to have a medium-term goal at all times in order to stay inspired. If the time to accomplishment is too close or far away, it fails to motivate. Kind of like how retirement in five years can get me up in the morning, but ten or fifteen years hardly seems worth thinking about. Again, I don't want to generalize my thinking to other people, but I think my experience was not too uncommon for "second marshmallow" type students.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Alternate strategies/solutions to marshmallow test

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@ThisDinosaur: I think that it does have something to do with desire to please. My adult children are both very bright, but my DD25 was much more eager to please from practically the moment she was born. She sang herself to sleep in her crib, and I never had to motivate her to attend school or complete her homework. My DS28, OTOH, throughout his childhood we were having conversations like:

Me: Why haven't you finished the diorama for English class?

Son: I read the book. I comprehend it in its entirety. If they wish to administer a test, I will take it. However, I do not see any point in the construction of a diorama. Also, I have noted that my English teacher frequently misspells words, and I doubt whether I would have any respect for her opinion of any diorama I am not likely to construct.

Me: I suppose if I ground you from the computer and take away all your books, you will just stare at the blank wall of your room. Therefore, I will ask that you have some sympathy for the plight of your poor mother and recall how very much she hates having to deal with phone calls from your school regarding your behavior, and how she went to some trouble to prepare your favorite dish of super cheesy cheesy noodles for dinner.

Son: Very well...Sister!!!Sister!!! Come here. Our mother will be unhappy if you do not construct a diorama on the topic of this book, because she will likely have to speak with my highly incompetent teacher on the phone if it is not completed. Since I never have any need to spend money, you may avail yourself of a few dollars on top of that stack. Please do not cause any disorder in my room during the process.

Me: Aaaaargh...I need a cookie.


I agree with you on the interim goals. I also find that I need to allow myself interim distractions. Like my core purpose is marching along a straight path to the sea with set mile markers, but there's a little dog part of my personality that has to run up and back down every side trail on the way or my core purpose will run out of spark.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Alternate strategies/solutions to marshmallow test

Post by ThisDinosaur »

@7Wannabe5: I have two siblings with an outlook just like your son's. They are both smarter than me, but I did better academically and financially. I also have young children, and I'd like them to share my future-focused outlook. I think this issue hits to the heart of ERE. FIREees value behaviors with disproportionately delayed intended outcomes.
Applications for this discussion include methods to raise your children to be savers vs. consumers, and convincing a spendthrift spouse to change their ways.

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