The limitations of prose for communicating mental concepts between brains

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JamesR
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The limitations of prose for communicating mental concepts between brains

Post by JamesR »

Prose:
  • 'comprises full grammatical sentences, which then constitute paragraphs'
  • 'a form of language that exhibits a grammatical structure and a natural flow of speech'
Pros:
  • the conventional way of disseminating information
  • comfortable because it sort of matches how we speak
The problem:
  • There is a high-impedience phase change when we convert the mental concept into a written form of speech, and similarly when we read prose back into a mental concept.
Brainstorm:
  • There are surely better ways to convey information than strictly limiting ourselves to prose form.
    Why limit ourselves to writing lots of sentences and paragraphs when ideas could be conveyed in list form?
Reader Exercise:
  • Think about how non-fiction articles, and textbooks can convey information better if writers did not always default to reams of paragraphs.
  • Does a biology textbook introducing new words and definitions and concepts and terminology need to use prose when relationships between the new concepts and old concepts can be shown easier in a more list-driven form?
  • Do you think prose form is the most effective way to disseminate information about a massive bribery scheme?
    http://www.theage.com.au/interactive/20 ... world.html
P.S. I didn't want to write this post in proper prose form or else I'd be a hypocrite ;)
P.P.S It is probably tricky to reduce our reliance on writing in prose since that's how we've been trained to write in since elementary school. I think that if we can figure out a new structure for converting our mental concepts into written form - one that skips the verbalization phase, it will pay off in spades.

henrik
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Re: The limitations of prose for communicating mental concepts between brains

Post by henrik »

It seems that a list is even more one-dimensional than prose. Relationships between concepts, objects, subjects etc tend to be multidimensional. Graphical modelling can sometimes overcome the limitations of prose, I guess depending on the subject?

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Ego
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Re: The limitations of prose for communicating mental concepts between brains

Post by Ego »

One brain is different from the other so to effectively communicate between them you've got to use the things they've got in common to get the message across. Way back when, newspapers were communicating with people who had very similar brains, since they grew up in the same region, spoke the same language, lived in the same culture, had similar histories.... Today the internet has fostered communication between brains that are incredibly different. The bridge is further across so we've got to use :lol: and :o to bridge it. Fact of life.

I find it harder with prose than I do with this....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y8jPx3d8YE

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Re: The limitations of prose for communicating mental concepts between brains

Post by jacob »

Math was invented to as an alternative language to communicate abstract concepts without any misunderstandings. On a related note, over the years of working with equations, I've switched to visualizing them instead. This is helpful for me (got a kind of wizard intuition about solutions) but it's difficult to communicate to someone who still lives in derivation land.

Then there's inventing a new language, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ithkuil ... English is known for being particularly good at expressing abstract concepts.

Another thing to consider is to override standard editorial conventions in the name of communication. I did that in the ERE book. For example, you will see me commit the anathema of repeating concepts, looping back, using real math, and mentioning the same damn rice cooker multiple times. Editorially, this looks bad because one is supposed to lend equal space to all concepts regardless of their importance, always be linear, and vary one's example/words. However, by breaking rules, people remember.

JamesR
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Re: The limitations of prose for communicating mental concepts between brains

Post by JamesR »

henrik wrote:It seems that a list is even more one-dimensional than prose. Relationships between concepts, objects, subjects etc tend to be multidimensional. Graphical modelling can sometimes overcome the limitations of prose, I guess depending on the subject?
My thought is that lists could be made multi-dimensional to show those relationships, perhaps by creating an ideographic system that makes it easier to show the various relationships between each item on the list. Multi-dimensionality is a serious problem, I find that for prose trying to convey some simple multi-dimensional concepts can result in tens or hundreds of pages of writing to wade through, it can be rather tedious.


Ithkuil seems interesting, never heard of it before. Looks potentially more interesting than lojban. Although I greatly suspect our best bet for coming up with a great human language that becomes our lingua franca is via some serious computer power/AI type approach. A great language would essentially augment our natural intelligence, remove obstacles to clear thinking, clear & concise speech, clear & concise written communication, typing speed, etc.

Toska2
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Re: The limitations of prose for communicating mental concepts between brains

Post by Toska2 »

"Graphical modelling"

Pictures?
Vocal intonation?
Body language?
Swift backhand?
Excessive use of "!" ?

English seem to be the most moldable language. I'd rather say jet or plane than big metal bird. Try adding to it or bringing up rare words like "akratic" and "anomie" :ugeek:

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Re: The limitations of prose for communicating mental concepts between brains

Post by Dragline »

jacob wrote:Math was invented to as an alternative language to communicate abstract concepts without any misunderstandings. On a related note, over the years of working with equations, I've switched to visualizing them instead. This is helpful for me (got a kind of wizard intuition about solutions) but it's difficult to communicate to someone who still lives in derivation land.
I've always been fascinated by Mandelbrot's ability to translate equations to shapes and then back again. I think very few people can do this at a high level. And even fewer can translate the results into words.

At a technical level, symbols are often superior to words. I have worked with engineers in steel making and other fields who spoke completely different languages, but had no trouble understanding each other through the symbols of their disciplines scribbled out on napkins.

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jennypenny
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Re: The limitations of prose for communicating mental concepts between brains

Post by jennypenny »

Prose is only one of many tools for communicating, and not always the best one. It's handy in conversations and for describing concepts that would fall under the 'humanities' heading. It's not the best tool for math or models or music or even simple concepts like color.

That said, a person who masters the use of a certain tool can usually convey almost any concept with it.

BRUTE
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Re: The limitations of prose for communicating mental concepts between brains

Post by BRUTE »

Toska2 wrote:I'd rather say jet or plane than big metal bird.
in that case, brute would advise against pointing the pressurized water jet cutter towards a sloped plane.


prose is narrative. humans mostly think in narratives. some humans have trained themselves, or maybe have a natural tendency to think in other ways like math, code, lists. but there is something about narratives that allows them to enter human minds more easily. maybe because language was invented by humans sitting around fires narrating the day's adventures.

brute actually thinks that prose can be one of the most efficient ways to communicate mental concepts. if one believes the human brain is a wet computer, the neuron pathways of which are shaped through repeated firing, and that emotional attachment is a major factor in firing said neurons, then eliciting an emotional response in the communicatee through narrative might be much more effective than simple listing of facts.

brute observes this in himself a lot: simply reading a fact does not ingrain the fact in brute's thinking. it will be there on the hard drive somewhere, and brute can recall and recite it. but if it comes to making an intuitive decision, brute's subconscious does not seem to scan the hard drive for facts. there is another part of brute's mind that contains rules for quick and intuitive decision making, and it's distinct from the fact hard drive. it is possible to get facts into that system. brute isn't 100% sure how that works, but narratives seem to work far better than lists of facts. so does repetition and looking at the same facts from multiple narratives/angles.

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Re: The limitations of prose for communicating mental concepts between brains

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

jacob said: Math was invented to as an alternative language to communicate abstract concepts without any misunderstandings. On a related note, over the years of working with equations, I've switched to visualizing them instead. This is helpful for me (got a kind of wizard intuition about solutions) but it's difficult to communicate to someone who still lives in derivation land.
Right. I am very aware of this capability because I am somebody who can only work with math as a language. IOW, I do math from my verbal center not my visual center. Good enough to earn me a 790 on the mathematics portion of the GRE, but a significant limitation. I believe that this is one of the inherent difference between the average male vs. female brain, and the reason why the engineering field remains so male dominated. Just recently I've been working on two problems with my perma-culture project that require spatial skills or intuition ( covering a large dome structure with plastic and securing it from influence of wind and determining where to dig swales and build berms along contour of landscape) , and I've been struck by how a variety of men who have taken interest in my project have been able to instantly suggest solutions. It's like they are seeing something obvious which I can't see. So, then I have to request that they use a great many words and repeat them until I finally comprehend what they are seeing even though I can't "see" what they are "seeing."

Of course, in some contexts this is really just a matter of knowledge base and experience. For instance, I have an annoying friend who is known as a genius in the field of electrical engineering, and he once tried to answer a question I asked him by drawing a schematic diagram. That said, I think maybe something like a flow chart or little chunk of logic/code would be the missing link between verbal and visual/spatial centers.

OTOH, I will never again make the horrendous mistake of saying anything remotely approximating "Would you like to talk about our relationship?" (or "Do these pants make me look fat?") to a literal-visual-engineer-type. Far better to just allow the corners of my mouth to curve downwards while giving minor shake of head to indicate negative and making careful choice of few words, such as "7WB5 no like hold wrench help fix motorcycle. 7WB5 like (mouth corners flipped up at this juncture) go see "experimental theater performance" (No. Strike that.) fun show!"

JamesR
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Re: The limitations of prose for communicating mental concepts between brains

Post by JamesR »

BRUTE wrote: prose is narrative. humans mostly think in narratives. some humans have trained themselves, or maybe have a natural tendency to think in other ways like math, code, lists. but there is something about narratives that allows them to enter human minds more easily. maybe because language was invented by humans sitting around fires narrating the day's adventures.

brute actually thinks that prose can be one of the most efficient ways to communicate mental concepts. if one believes the human brain is a wet computer, the neuron pathways of which are shaped through repeated firing, and that emotional attachment is a major factor in firing said neurons, then eliciting an emotional response in the communicatee through narrative might be much more effective than simple listing of facts.

brute observes this in himself a lot: simply reading a fact does not ingrain the fact in brute's thinking. it will be there on the hard drive somewhere, and brute can recall and recite it. but if it comes to making an intuitive decision, brute's subconscious does not seem to scan the hard drive for facts. there is another part of brute's mind that contains rules for quick and intuitive decision making, and it's distinct from the fact hard drive. it is possible to get facts into that system. brute isn't 100% sure how that works, but narratives seem to work far better than lists of facts. so does repetition and looking at the same facts from multiple narratives/angles.
Good point, I have heard that we remember facts easier when it has been presented in narrative form. However when I think back to reading personal finance books in narrative form (The Wealthy Barber, Pig and the Python, The Richest Man in Babylon, Rich Dad Poor Dad), I wonder if narrative is all that effective, given how few key core concepts are ultimately conveyed from the hundreds of pages & hours of reading required. In fact, it seems there's quite a limit on the speed and number of concepts that can be introduced in narrative form without leaving the reader frustrated..

I agree that simply reading a fact alone is not really enough, especially without the repetition. Narrative isn't necessarily required for repetition though. There's probably ways to repeat lists, probably hybrid prose/list approach anyways. I feel that we're definitely going in a more list-based or outliner-based direction anyways, given how many blog posts will combine prose & lists or outlines.

Toska2
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Re: The limitations of prose for communicating mental concepts between brains

Post by Toska2 »

There's "authors" and then there is "authors". Some write for content others write to fill a page. ERE book vs Rich Dad Poor Dad.

I would think conveying emotion needs verbose prose. Saying Romeo and Juliet were in love is lacking compared to the book or play.

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Re: The limitations of prose for communicating mental concepts between brains

Post by jacob »

BRUTE wrote: prose is narrative. humans mostly think in narratives. some humans have trained themselves, or maybe have a natural tendency to think in other ways like math, code, lists. but there is something about narratives that allows them to enter human minds more easily. maybe because language was invented by humans sitting around fires narrating the day's adventures.
There was a recent thread about how we build knowledge. It contained a discussion of how knowledge was like a pyramid of abstractions. Unfortunately, my google-fu is failing and I can't remember the title of it.

I think the reason that the narrative is effective is that it works on the Dreyfus level 1 and 2. "Ann is 27 year old and wants to retire early, so she goes to the bank...(level 1). The investment advisor provides a long list of options and explains what each of them does (level 2)". A narrative avoids any kind of further abstractions by construction, because the narrative would simply be overwhelmingly long. "Also consider Bob, who .... and then there's Carl and Denise, ... and Yolanda and Zach... (400 pages later)... Ten years later, five of them randomly meet in the country club and compare notes. It turns out that they've all followed the same plans; a few of the others are in prison and have surprisingly also made similar choices (level 3)... (800 pages later as these people randomly meet each other and compare notes ... we are finally at level 3."

It would like reading "War and Peace" or the Bible; or rather what I think they are like because I've never made it through either.

http://www.bumc.bu.edu/facdev-medicine/ ... -level.pdf

The campfire explanation is a good one! Speaking has been our primary form of communication for a long time with is linear in time, augmented somewhat by body language which adds a complexity dimension because body language can modify the spoken message.

We don't have any telepathic skills, nor do we have a way to display complex thoughts directly on our forehead. Humans haven't developed an overly deep body language. Very few people have tried to communicate via interpretative dancing ... and most other people don't have a clue what they're saying. (This is a western perspective. Tribes have rain dances, war dances, etc.)

The other factor is how things are recorded in the brain. With spoken words being the primary source of input, most people still operate their thinking in terms of some voice in their head. That's their operating system. Perhaps this voice also operates Debate1.0. Memory is strangely a weird combination of images, smells, sounds (songs), and narratives.

Once people started writing and drawing, both the form of the communication and the storage system (walls, papers) allowed more complex forms of communication. Some have moved onto those forms of communication but there's a lot of cultural inertia. Also because these other systems are nowhere nearly as well-developed as speaking. Indeed, if someone develops other aspects of their brain but ignores their narrative skills we deem them autistic.

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Re: The limitations of prose for communicating mental concepts between brains

Post by BRUTE »

JamesR wrote:Good point, I have heard that we remember facts easier when it has been presented in narrative form. However when I think back to reading personal finance books in narrative form (The Wealthy Barber, Pig and the Python, The Richest Man in Babylon, Rich Dad Poor Dad), I wonder if narrative is all that effective, given how few key core concepts are ultimately conveyed from the hundreds of pages & hours of reading required. In fact, it seems there's quite a limit on the speed and number of concepts that can be introduced in narrative form without leaving the reader frustrated..

I agree that simply reading a fact alone is not really enough, especially without the repetition. Narrative isn't necessarily required for repetition though. There's probably ways to repeat lists, probably hybrid prose/list approach anyways. I feel that we're definitely going in a more list-based or outliner-based direction anyways, given how many blog posts will combine prose & lists or outlines.
JamesR is right, narrative has a very high words-to-content ratio compared a a condensed list of facts. almost all prose has 1 or maybe 2 ideas to convey. in fact when humans encounter a story with more ideas, they deem it complex, confusing, or both. but it seems to brute these are two different bottlenecks in conveying thought.

narrative is good at conveying facts to the more intuitive, emotional (?) mind. lists of facts are good for conveying, well, lists of facts to willing recipients. it would be extremely inefficient to report an inventory list as narrative ("when jack came to the second drawer, he stumbled upon 15 screws. then he saw 19 nails.."), simply padding it with fluff. but the goal of a list of stuff is to store this information in the fact-part of the brain to be recalled upon conscious thought ("how many nails were there?").

but a list of moral values, on the other hand, is probably better told as narrative to humans, not like this:
- don't hurt people
- don't take their stuff
- Though shalt not eat seafood lacking scales

the point of conveying these types of ideas or mindsets is to influence day-to-day behavior and decision making, which is probably much less conscious in humans than some of them would like to admit, and likely mostly functions in some kind of animal part of the brain and via emotions ("man kiss man! horrible feeling in stomach! feel like seeing tiger! search for nearest rock and initiate stoning!")

regarding the repetition, brute has also speculated if narrative just organically incorporates some memorization techniques. or reversely, if memorization techniques are just narrative hacked and without the fluff.

for example is seems scientifically proven that humans can burn pretty much any information into their brain using spaced repetition systems, which determine the optimal (for retention) delay between repetition to commit information to memory.

brute is uncertain wether there are several, completely distinct types of memory in humans, or if it is more of a revers pyramid where most information gets forgotten, some of it can be consciously recalled, a few things make it into the core part of "who humans are" (if there is such a thing). brute there are probably different strategies for retaining and conveying information depending on which it is.

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Re: The limitations of prose for communicating mental concepts between brains

Post by EMJ »

There are also well-made videos like those shown here: http://eowilsonfoundation.org/e-o-wilso ... -on-earth/

IlliniDave
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Re: The limitations of prose for communicating mental concepts between brains

Post by IlliniDave »

Prose has its strengths and limitations. Of course we all know the saying, "a picture is worth a thousand words." Human brains are very efficient at spotting patterns, and at spotting/focusing on what evolution has taught us is important out of a blizzard of sensory input. Those abilities are extremely useful, but can also lead us astray. I see prose/language as a bit of a counterbalance to that, something a little more methodical and in some ways thorough, but often inefficient.

And of course, like it or not, humans are emotional creatures and communicating for us is not all about passing dry facts and information back and forth. Hence there are things like art, poetry, music, and storytelling, in our arsenal, along with the nuances if direct communication mentioned above (body language, facial expression, vocal timbre and inflection, non-language sounds, touch, etc.).

We have numerous ways beyond prose to convey certain types of information better. Even within a typical textbook you'll often find a mix of prose, photographic illustrations, drawings, mathematical graphs and illustrations, tables, lists, callout boxes, varied typeface, footnotes, etc. Electronic medis nowadays can add video and audio, and links to external information sources. Without the concern of wasting paper (something that I'm sure led to many of the page use conventions we have today, including prose paragraphs), ebooks are free to arrange information a little more loosely, I suppose.

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Re: The limitations of prose for communicating mental concepts between brains

Post by bryan »

Agree with @IlliniDave!

The topic is very applicable to the man/machine (computer) interface challenge as well.

Would be amazingly handy for a feeling for some concept could be communicated more accurately and easily. How one understands/represents things in his head, I think, actually impacts how one thinks. See a (really cool!!) link shared on HackerNews recently: https://acko.net/files/gltalks/toolsforthought/#0

From that presentation, even algebra using symbols is hugely limiting for humans to really understand, learn:
> every exponential curve of any base or offset can be drawn by scaling/ translating any other exponential curve, vertically/horizontally. I don't know about you, but this was never explained to me in school. I find this a very neat way to understand exactly what makes exponentials so special.

Being able to communicate via different mechanisms makes a good teacher. A student not needing such a teacher to make the connections makes a good student. Would be nice if we had an objectively superior (to the alternative) textbook chapters (etc) for each subject.. Would be nice if it was easy to know which schools have superior professors (I suppose you could come up with a short list of questions to ask principals, deans, professors/teachers etc to suss out some info).

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Re: The limitations of prose for communicating mental concepts between brains

Post by jacob »

@bryan - That's the Sapir Whorf hypohesis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity

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Re: The limitations of prose for communicating mental concepts between brains

Post by fips »

jacob wrote:On a related note, over the years of working with equations, I've switched to visualizing them instead. This is helpful for me (got a kind of wizard intuition about solutions)
This is so true: Bret Victor - Inventing on Principle

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