Empathy

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Myakka
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Re: Empathy

Post by Myakka »

According to the man being interviewed in the podcast, the problem with empathy is the tendency to favor friends/family/people who fall into your stereotypes of who is better at something, the problem is that people are controlled by FOXNews into wanting to punish the bad guys – those are the ones I remember after having slept on their discussion overnight.

I see an underlying assumption in this analysis that one's personal influence will be used to further the interests of oneself and the people one approves of AND therefore comes to the conclusion that in the interest of having a level playing field for the people around you that empathy ought to be avoided. This point of view is a rewording of the dictum that police are apt to quote “No special treatment for anyone”.

The problems with this argument start with the examples given. These aren't even instances of empathy; they are instances of favoritism. That favoritism can have unfortunate consequences is a conclusion that seems sound.

Empathy is not at all the same thing as favoritism. It is the social glue that allows individuals to live and work together smoothly in ways that leave EVERYONE the space they need to FUNCTION optimally. A social system without empathy reduces a group to a collection of individuals each battling that system just to survive – just to be able to do those things that are being asked of them by that system.

The only people I know of who would find it a positive set of circumstances for people to live in such an empathy-free system is the Power Elite who have a long history of setting group against group and then sitting back and watching as those people destroy each other. I see their hand in this argument and therefore reject it as yet another ploy to divide and conquer people like you and me.

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jennypenny
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Re: Empathy

Post by jennypenny »

SBC's test to measure empathy in adults if anyone wants to take it ... http://psychology-tools.com/empathy-quotient

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Re: Empathy

Post by jacob »

You got: Conan! "Crush your enemies. See them driven before you. Hear the lamentations of their women."

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jennypenny
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Re: Empathy

Post by jennypenny »

If you're curious if a lack of empathy is caused by psychopathy or because you're on the autism spectrum, you can take SBC's AQ test ... http://psychology-tools.com/autism-spectrum-quotient

Dragline
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Re: Empathy

Post by Dragline »

jacob wrote:You got: Conan! "Crush your enemies. See them driven before you. Hear the lamentations of their women."
Ooooh, you asked for this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBGOQ7SsJrw

George the original one
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Re: Empathy

Post by George the original one »

jennypenny wrote:SBC's test to measure empathy in adults if anyone wants to take it ... http://psychology-tools.com/empathy-quotient
Oh dear, oh dear:

"Your Empathy Quotient score was 27 out of a possible 80.
Scores of 30 or less indicate a lack of empathy common in people with Autism or Asperger’s Syndrome."

Then for the second test... apparently I bend towards being a psychopath, LOL:

"Your score was 15 out of a possible 50.
Scores in the 0 - 25 range indicate little or no Autistic traits."

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Ego
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Re: Empathy

Post by Ego »

Hum.

55 out of 80

edit 12 for the second one.
Last edited by Ego on Fri Aug 14, 2015 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Empathy

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

40/20.

Psychopath/autistic seems like a false dichotomy to me, because I tend towards physical empathy and mental distraction. I almost never get "touched out" and my physical presentation tends towards warm and easy-going, but my mind is often elsewhere, so I sometimes have difficulty in relationship with people who can't be soothed or satisfied through physical care and require a lot of attentive listening instead. Like I am generally very reflexively in-tune to "this person needs a cuddle" and I am happy to provide, but I sometimes have very little ability or desire to relate or convey understanding in regards to "why" they need a cuddle beyond making appropriate clucking noises. For instance, one of the girlfriend/wife "jobs" I really dislike is being required to listen on the telephone while a man complains about his current employment.

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Re: Empathy

Post by jacob »

29/19 --- the ideal government-approved combination for someone to hold the nuclear launch codes and not screw it up.

The form of these tests annoy me because I think they confound normal behavior with normative behavior. IOW, they're trying to diagnose a condition by how close to the center of the Bell curve one is. That is, if you're not close to the median, you have a disorder.

However, ...
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." - Jiddu Krishnamurti
Note how the empathy test focuses on things like manners, "good behavior", experiences, fashions, social situations, seeking agreement (not truth), detecting deception, ... need I go on? ... the kind of empathy that one would expect out of the ES** crowd.

There are few or none if any questions in that test that deal with the existence of e.g. internal morality (Kohlberg 6), resolving multiple emotions in other people, understanding complex emotions (jealousy), solving conflicting emotions, balancing emoting with thinking, relating authentically, understanding how others are thinking (their assumptions and reasoning), understanding ow others are feeling (their memories and balances), ...

A test that would appeal to the IN** crowd.

I'm pretty sure the ES** crowd would score badly on this one.

Similarly, with the Autism test. Gaaahh... pretty much the same deal. You'll score low if you have *NT* skills or preferences. Wait what, you actually know how logarithms work? Score one personality disorder point for not failing math class with the rest of them. Probably the most ironic adjective to this condition is "highly functioning".---Indeed, meaning, functioning better than "normal". What does that rhetorically imply about being normal?

PS: I'm not saying these conditions aren't real or debilitating in extremes. I'm saying that the tests are stupid---or at least shouldn't be applied willy-nilly taking results at face value. I'm also saying that often times the main cause of the problem is not that the person is "crazy" but that society is.
"A time will come when the whole world will go mad. And to anyone who is not mad they will say: 'You are mad, for you are not like us.'" - St. Anthony the Great

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jennypenny
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Re: Empathy

Post by jennypenny »

I'm trying to understand ...

So is part of the problem for INTJs specifically that (1) the tests are designed to screen for traits that we consider useful but society considers odd or 'bad', and (2) we're the only idiots answering truthfully instead of choosing the answers that would make us look the best or the most normal?


For some reason, I'm reminded of this scene from "The Sixth Sense" ... The don't have meetings about rainbows.

enigmaT120
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Re: Empathy

Post by enigmaT120 »

jacob wrote: I'm saying that the tests are stupid---or at least shouldn't be applied willy-nilly taking results at face value. I'm also saying that often times the main cause of the problem is not that the person is "crazy" but that society is.
Saved me some time.

cmonkey
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Re: Empathy

Post by cmonkey »

jennypenny wrote:SBC's test to measure empathy in adults if anyone wants to take it ... http://psychology-tools.com/empathy-quotient

Your Empathy Quotient score was 15 out of a possible 80.
Scores of 30 or less indicate a lack of empathy common in people with Autism or Asperger’s Syndrome.


Autistic Test

Your score was 30 out of a possible 50.
Scores in the 26 - 32 range indicate some Autistic traits (Aspergers Syndrome).


I think most of this is by choice. My fixation with numbers/patterns on the other hand...

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GandK
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Re: Empathy

Post by GandK »

cmonkey wrote:My fixation with numbers/patterns on the other hand...
I'm pretty sure pattern fixation is a normal part of being INxJ. When your primary understanding of reality is based on spotting and dealing with anomalies, an appreciation of patterns is a survival trait. Also rhythm, efficiency, a desire to eat M&Ms until there's an equal amount of each color left, then consuming them one at a time in spectrum order until no more remain... need I say more? :D

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Ego
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Re: Empathy

Post by Ego »


BRUTE
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Re: Empathy

Post by BRUTE »

brute scores 31 - one point above autism

calixarene
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Re: Empathy

Post by calixarene »

40/16

Interesting because I have been quite empathetic ever since I was a kid, to the point where I would get exhausted or overwhelmed and need to be alone for a little while. In fact, my "empathy emotions" are often stronger than my own personal emotions, which may be one reason I like reading books so much. I handle it better nowadays, but I still freeze up and go into overload when exposed to intense anger or grief.

I think the reason why I scored so low is because though I feel those feelings intensely, I don't use feelings to decide my actions or the main course of my life. I think this is where empathy tests (and INTJ stereotypes) fail; there's a difference between empathizing with others and basing your values and actions off of that (e.g. a juror may empathize with a criminal and still vote to have him executed, even if causes himself emotional pain.) A lot of these tests seem to conflate the two.

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GandK
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Re: Empathy

Post by GandK »

calixarene wrote:...I don't use feelings to decide my actions or the main course of my life. I think this is where empathy tests (and INTJ stereotypes) fail; there's a difference between empathizing with others and basing your values and actions off of that (e.g. a juror may empathize with a criminal and still vote to have him executed, even if causes himself emotional pain.) A lot of these tests seem to conflate the two.
This, x 100. My emotions are strong, but they're also unpredictable and can be completely unrelated to actual events (as any woman who's ever had PMS can attest). Other than bring too afraid of something to do it, I would never base important decisions on how I felt at the time.

People who use Introverted Feeling as their primary or secondary function (INFP, ISFP, ENFP and ESFP) have a much harder time detaching than the rest of us. Here's a good, if simplistic, breakdown of this.

Edited to add: It has occurred to me more than once that the hyperactive political correctness movement, on college campuses and in society generally, is the result of America's cultural personality type becoming ESFP.

jacob
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Re: Empathy

Post by jacob »

GandK wrote: Edited to add: It has occurred to me more than once that the hyperactive political correctness movement, on college campuses and in society generally, is the result of America's cultural personality type becoming ESFP.
Huh? How do you figure? (ESFP wouldn't be my first choice. I'd pick INFJ---"the advocate" as the source and ESFJ---"the consul" as the target ... thus marking a transition from the previous ENTJ->ESTJ system of social values.

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GandK
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Re: Empathy

Post by GandK »

jacob wrote:Huh? How do you figure? (ESFP wouldn't be my first choice. I'd pick INFJ---"the advocate" as the source and ESFJ---"the consul" as the target ... thus marking a transition from the previous ENTJ->ESTJ system of social values.
I agree that we (INFJs) are the source of most inclusivist language. But we also tend toward the disembodied, not the specific. Which is why I think Introverted Feeling is the underlying source of the current PC movement.

Example: race. An INFJ wants to find one common definition that covers everybody. Fe pushes us to do that, to be framework-oriented and objective. From that perspective we are 100% on board with race-inclusivity, and probably 100% of us are working toward that goal within our own sphere. However, the current trend of "my race is whatever within my ethnic background that I feel it to be" grates significantly. That is not framework-oriented or objective. It's 100% subjective. This is the opposite of the way an INFJ thinks. We want to find and put into place a system that not only supports the racially disadvantaged, but also enables all races to know how to act and interact respectfully and responsibly in all situations. A subjective definition of race never allows for that, because if what is allowable and what is offensive is different for every person, then it is impossible for anyone to be race-positive at all times unless he (a) gets to know every person with whom he interacts well enough to ask personal questions about identity (which is what the Fi types favor, yet even they agree when pressed that this is temporally impossible), or (b) chooses never to interact with others at all. Both options are anathema to an INFJ, because while we want inclusivity, we are also obsessed with efficiency. Like an INTJ wants the right language/formula for financial independence, we want the right language/formula for race, and we don't believe the answer is "whatever I feel like it is today." We want the archetypal truth... One Answer to Rule Them All.

I also don't agree that the target is a J. I think that, over the last few decades, the main personality of American society has done this:

1970-1990 -- ESTJ/ESFJ
1990+ -- ESTP/ESFP

I believe the overall cultural switch from J to P happened about the same time Bill Clinton was first elected in 1992 (maybe that was part of the reason?). I believe part of it was a tipping point of women in the workplace, and part of it was a backlash against "conservative" values as society became more multicultural. Since there is no agreed upon definition now of many things (race, sexuality, moral standards, etc.) Fi has taken over. The Internet's "anything goes" culture has exacerbated this. When INFJs collectively get our act together, we can maybe mitigate this. But right now, conceptually, it's the wild west. Which is not what we want at all... I'm madly in search of explanations and a formula and "common sense" every time I read another PC article.

(Apologies to all for the sidetrack.)

thrifty++
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Re: Empathy

Post by thrifty++ »

I got 50/80 - more than I would have thought.

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