Empathy

[calixarene]

40/16

Interesting because I have been quite empathetic ever since I was a kid, to the point where I would get exhausted or overwhelmed and need to be alone for a little while. In fact, my "empathy emotions" are often stronger than my own personal emotions, which may be one reason I like reading books so much. I handle it better nowadays, but I still freeze up and go into overload when exposed to intense anger or grief.

I think the reason why I scored so low is because though I feel those feelings intensely, I don't use feelings to decide my actions or the main course of my life. I think this is where empathy tests (and INTJ stereotypes) fail; there's a difference between empathizing with others and basing your values and actions off of that (e.g. a juror may empathize with a criminal and still vote to have him executed, even if causes himself emotional pain.) A lot of these tests seem to conflate the two.

[GandK]

...I don't use feelings to decide my actions or the main course of my life. I think this is where empathy tests (and INTJ stereotypes) fail; there's a difference between empathizing with others and basing your values and actions off of that (e.g. a juror may empathize with a criminal and still vote to have him executed, even if causes himself emotional pain.) A lot of these tests seem to conflate the two.

This, x 100. My emotions are strong, but they're also unpredictable and can be completely unrelated to actual events (as any woman who's ever had PMS can attest). Other than bring too afraid of something to do it, I would never base important decisions on how I felt at the time.

People who use Introverted Feeling as their primary or secondary function (INFP, ISFP, ENFP and ESFP) have a much harder time detaching than the rest of us. Here's a good, if simplistic, breakdown of this.

Edited to add: It has occurred to me more than once that the hyperactive political correctness movement, on college campuses and in society generally, is the result of America's cultural personality type becoming ESFP.

[jacob]

Edited to add: It has occurred to me more than once that the hyperactive political correctness movement, on college campuses and in society generally, is the result of America's cultural personality type becoming ESFP.

Huh? How do you figure? (ESFP wouldn't be my first choice. I'd pick INFJ---"the advocate" as the source and ESFJ---"the consul" as the target ... thus marking a transition from the previous ENTJ->ESTJ system of social values.

[GandK]

Huh? How do you figure? (ESFP wouldn't be my first choice. I'd pick INFJ---"the advocate" as the source and ESFJ---"the consul" as the target ... thus marking a transition from the previous ENTJ->ESTJ system of social values.

I agree that we (INFJs) are the source of most inclusivist language. But we also tend toward the disembodied, not the specific. Which is why I think Introverted Feeling is the underlying source of the current PC movement.

Example: race. An INFJ wants to find one common definition that covers everybody. Fe pushes us to do that, to be framework-oriented and objective. From that perspective we are 100% on board with race-inclusivity, and probably 100% of us are working toward that goal within our own sphere. However, the current trend of "my race is whatever within my ethnic background that I feel it to be" grates significantly. That is not framework-oriented or objective. It's 100% subjective. This is the opposite of the way an INFJ thinks. We want to find and put into place a system that not only supports the racially disadvantaged, but also enables all races to know how to act and interact respectfully and responsibly in all situations. A subjective definition of race never allows for that, because if what is allowable and what is offensive is different for every person, then it is impossible for anyone to be race-positive at all times unless he (a) gets to know every person with whom he interacts well enough to ask personal questions about identity (which is what the Fi types favor, yet even they agree when pressed that this is temporally impossible), or (b) chooses never to interact with others at all. Both options are anathema to an INFJ, because while we want inclusivity, we are also obsessed with efficiency. Like an INTJ wants the right language/formula for financial independence, we want the right language/formula for race, and we don't believe the answer is "whatever I feel like it is today." We want the archetypal truth... One Answer to Rule Them All.

I also don't agree that the target is a J. I think that, over the last few decades, the main personality of American society has done this:

1970-1990 -- ESTJ/ESFJ
1990+ -- ESTP/ESFP

I believe the overall cultural switch from J to P happened about the same time Bill Clinton was first elected in 1992 (maybe that was part of the reason?). I believe part of it was a tipping point of women in the workplace, and part of it was a backlash against "conservative" values as society became more multicultural. Since there is no agreed upon definition now of many things (race, sexuality, moral standards, etc.) Fi has taken over. The Internet's "anything goes" culture has exacerbated this. When INFJs collectively get our act together, we can maybe mitigate this. But right now, conceptually, it's the wild west. Which is not what we want at all... I'm madly in search of explanations and a formula and "common sense" every time I read another PC article.

(Apologies to all for the sidetrack.)

[thrifty++]

I got 50/80 - more than I would have thought.

[daylen]

4/80. I win. Or lose depending on your perspective.

[heyhey]

I had a score of 60, and my usual Introvert score on Myers-Briggs is around 90. GandK's comments on this thread were very helpful for me. I tend to isolate, either by spending time alone or by remaining silent in conversations, because I cannot cope with the emotional load of interacting with people.

[thrifty++]

I think people can mistake introverts for being misanthropic or not having empathy. However I think introverts just need time on their own to recharge. That does not mean we have less empathy.

[jennypenny]

When you take acetaminophen, you don’t feel others’ pain as much

When you take acetaminophen to reduce your pain, you may also be decreasing your empathy for both the physical and social aches that other people experience, a new study suggests.

[ ... ]

A 2004 study scanned the brains of people as they were experiencing pain and while they were imagining other people feeling the same pain. Those results showed that the same part of the brain was activated in both cases.

“In light of those results, it is understandable why using Tylenol to reduce your pain may also reduce your ability to feel other people’s pain as well,” he said.

The researchers are continuing to study how acetaminophen may affect people’s emotions and behavior, Way said. They are also beginning to study another common pain reliever – ibuprofen – to see if it has similar results.


You gotta wonder what kind of effect this is having on the general population, especially if it turns out that all pain meds including ibuprofen and opioids have the same effect.

[jacob]

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archi ... ds/275101/ ... also works on social anxiety and existential distress.

[Ego]

Mindblowing article.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020 ... thout-pain

But what if our worst feelings are just vestigial garbage? Hypervigilance and pricking fear were useful when survival depended on evading lions; they are not particularly productive when the predators are Alzheimer’s and cancer. Other excruciating feelings, like consuming sadness and aching regret, may never have had a function in the evolutionary sense. But religion, art, literature, and Oprah have convinced us that they are valuable—the bitter kick that enhances life’s intermittent sweetness. Pain is what makes joy, gratitude, mercy, hilarity, and empathy so precious. Unless it isn’t.

and

Paul Bloom, a professor of psychology at Yale and the author of the book “Against Empathy,” maintains that relating to suffering has little to do with the capacity to be helpful and kind. He has published research suggesting that compassion, not empathy, drives altruistic behavior. (Most research on the subject blurs together empathy and compassion, but Bloom argues that this is a failure of experimental design: “The standard measures suck.”) “Empathy can actually get in the way—if you are in terrible pain and I feel so much empathy for you that, being with you, I feel it, too, I may decide to stay home,” he told me. “The Buddhists knew this. There’s all this teaching that says, ‘Don’t get sentimental. Joyously and lovingly help others, but don’t get in their heads.’ ”

and

Even Hill—who told me how disastrous it would be for human beings to float through life without anxiety—conceded, “Maybe Jo is the next evolutionary step.”

[7Wannabe5]

I always thought that empathy was inclusive of mature emotional "differentiation" and also the respect absent in pity.

[classical_Liberal]

I believe this to be culturally divergent. Faith in meritocracy, outcomes purely based on merit, means that my suffering is largely my fault. Compassion is difficult without empathy in this belief set.

If suffering is random, luck based, caused by the God(s), or maybe a past life. Compassion without empathy is more feasible. Afterall, they've done nothing to deserve their lot. We should do our part to help those less fortunate.

Do you feel different about a person who gets lung cancer that is a smoker vs one that was unknowingly exposed to asbestos by an unethical employer?