Wow, it's like a train wreck.
It's, however, interesting to see the change over the last, say 4 years, from how E-FIRE used to be reviled or at least dismissed by the majority of commenters to now where it's getting defended by at least a handful of people.
Is it something like this?
"A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it." --- Planck
Here generation doesn't necessarily mean individuals (because 4 years is not that long although Gen Y is relatively speaking quite a bit older now). It could also be "blogs" (there are more FIRE blogs out there now than there were in 2007) or "economic conditions"---the markets today have evolved a lot since 2007.
Somebody really hates the ERE movement
Yeah, I've seen his stuff and his posts on other blogs. He strikes me as an angry and dissatisfied person because the world does not conform to his views, which leads him to attack anything that doesn't match his mindset. He enjoys going out of his way to call other people stupid.
Even his good posts are mostly warmed-over stuff that's better presented elsewhere. Not useful. Walk Awaaaaay!
Even his good posts are mostly warmed-over stuff that's better presented elsewhere. Not useful. Walk Awaaaaay!
I think it's great... for a few reasons.
Some who are inclined to ERE are frugal or they want to be frugal. Others desperately want to get out of the rat race. They don't answer his rhetorical question, "Is it even worth living on $15K a year just to avoid working," in the way he had hoped.
Any attention is good attention. Many don't even realize that ER is an option. By writing about it derisively he is injecting it into their reality. Suddenly their spectrum of options has expanded.
Some who are inclined to ERE are frugal or they want to be frugal. Others desperately want to get out of the rat race. They don't answer his rhetorical question, "Is it even worth living on $15K a year just to avoid working," in the way he had hoped.
Any attention is good attention. Many don't even realize that ER is an option. By writing about it derisively he is injecting it into their reality. Suddenly their spectrum of options has expanded.
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directionseeker
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I just read through his post. I will say his opinion where ERE people must be living a pathetic life style is not uncommon. I started a blog on early retirement recently and has been researched on other personal finance blog. I have seen many personal finance blogger condemn even the possibility of living a good life style with low budget like $15,000 or even $7,000 like Jacob.
As written in the book, our society now has trained us to be a specialist rather a generalist. We are trained to be very good at a very narrow area that earned us certain amount of money and we use that money to buy goods and service to support our everyday life. I ever discuss the idea of ERE with colleague and friends, they were interested in the topic until I spill out the Jacob's yearly expense. Most of the response I get were "that poor guy cannot enjoy anything" or "what can you buy with $7,000? My car cost me that much in 6 months".
I am on my way to pay off my loan and I expect it to be pay off in few months. I am switching my hobbies to free hobbies and reading more books from library nowadays. This kind of life style choice was deemed by my ex colleague as no life, not fun but I say it is because they don't know the enjoyment from all these free activity. And the funny things is the same group of people are complaining to me how they hate their current job and how they can never retire from work while spend money on cigarette, movie every week, junk food and has no plan at all how they can retire.
As written in the book, our society now has trained us to be a specialist rather a generalist. We are trained to be very good at a very narrow area that earned us certain amount of money and we use that money to buy goods and service to support our everyday life. I ever discuss the idea of ERE with colleague and friends, they were interested in the topic until I spill out the Jacob's yearly expense. Most of the response I get were "that poor guy cannot enjoy anything" or "what can you buy with $7,000? My car cost me that much in 6 months".
I am on my way to pay off my loan and I expect it to be pay off in few months. I am switching my hobbies to free hobbies and reading more books from library nowadays. This kind of life style choice was deemed by my ex colleague as no life, not fun but I say it is because they don't know the enjoyment from all these free activity. And the funny things is the same group of people are complaining to me how they hate their current job and how they can never retire from work while spend money on cigarette, movie every week, junk food and has no plan at all how they can retire.
I found this an interesting comment snip in the op article's comments section ...
...
You brought up health, and it was a cancer scare that made me realize the value of my remaining time. I now believe that living well requires a certain balance between money and time– good health years. Once you earn enough money, I think it’s not a good idea to sacrifice time trying to gain more.
...
...
You brought up health, and it was a cancer scare that made me realize the value of my remaining time. I now believe that living well requires a certain balance between money and time– good health years. Once you earn enough money, I think it’s not a good idea to sacrifice time trying to gain more.
...
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secretwealth
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So much anger there. So much I'd love to say, but know it would be wasted in the comment section. If freelancing is now not being retired then I know a lot of retired people who aren't retired.
Overall his lack of research for this article is what bugs me. The spouse thing rubs me wrong for so many reasons. So basically even if two people work to retirement age and one retires (cause they are older) are they not actually retired until their Spouse does too?
Overall people without open minds drive me up a wall... although sometimes I'm one of those people too.
Overall his lack of research for this article is what bugs me. The spouse thing rubs me wrong for so many reasons. So basically even if two people work to retirement age and one retires (cause they are older) are they not actually retired until their Spouse does too?
Overall people without open minds drive me up a wall... although sometimes I'm one of those people too.
Poor: (adj.) requiring others; not having the necessities of life in one's own possession. -Marcus Aurelius: Meditations
I read that just yesterday and Jacob's recent downtheroad.org link was the first thing that sprung to mind. He lives on ~$5000/yr but who in their right minds could call him poor?
Before "Darwin" assumes poverty at $15,000/yr based on some arbitrary government minimum wage level, maybe he should do a bit of his own meditating.
@Ego- Great post. I liked Taleb's discussion of why authors are Antifragile. I had never heard of this blog until it was posted here for criticism, so it does indeed seem to be yet another PT Barnum moment for all involved...
I read that just yesterday and Jacob's recent downtheroad.org link was the first thing that sprung to mind. He lives on ~$5000/yr but who in their right minds could call him poor?
Before "Darwin" assumes poverty at $15,000/yr based on some arbitrary government minimum wage level, maybe he should do a bit of his own meditating.
@Ego- Great post. I liked Taleb's discussion of why authors are Antifragile. I had never heard of this blog until it was posted here for criticism, so it does indeed seem to be yet another PT Barnum moment for all involved...
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jennypenny
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"work provides a sense of purpose and accomplishment. I hear stories all the time about people hitting their 50s and 60s and when they retire, they just sit around the house and sleep all day"
That statement makes me sad because I think it's true for a lot of people. They are so used to having their time, purpose, and direction dictated by others--from their preschool cubicle to their work cubicle--that they don't know how to design their own life. They need someone else to do it for them. No wonder retiring early and being responsible for their own well-being scares them into rants like this one.
"And what about parenting? I’m trying to teach my kids that they need to work hard and do well in school to have what we have someday."
So. Wrong. It's brainwashing, not parenting. That line is code for "do what everyone else is doing" because I think what many parents secretly want most is not for their kids to excel, but for their kids to excel at being normal. Plus, it assumes that their kids should want what they want.
That statement makes me sad because I think it's true for a lot of people. They are so used to having their time, purpose, and direction dictated by others--from their preschool cubicle to their work cubicle--that they don't know how to design their own life. They need someone else to do it for them. No wonder retiring early and being responsible for their own well-being scares them into rants like this one.
"And what about parenting? I’m trying to teach my kids that they need to work hard and do well in school to have what we have someday."
So. Wrong. It's brainwashing, not parenting. That line is code for "do what everyone else is doing" because I think what many parents secretly want most is not for their kids to excel, but for their kids to excel at being normal. Plus, it assumes that their kids should want what they want.
I do think we (well, Myself at least ) should be able to read a dissenting opinion like that and not be bothered by it at all. Just as we wish others would no decide that we are bad people for doing or thinking ERE (they shouldn't be bothered or offended by us), we shouldn't be offended or bothered by what this guy thinks. It's his own opinion. It's ok for him to think whatever he wants.
As for promotion of the ERE concept, book, blog/forum, etc... As someone mentioned there are probably people reading that post that would NEVER have heard about ERE otherwise. So the people reading mainstream blogs wishing for something more can see a new option (this was me a few years ago)... Plus... It's a pretty big sign when Financial Samurai is the first voice of reason in the comments. (Sam writes intentionally controversial posts on his own blog that sometimes have big logic gaps)
As for promotion of the ERE concept, book, blog/forum, etc... As someone mentioned there are probably people reading that post that would NEVER have heard about ERE otherwise. So the people reading mainstream blogs wishing for something more can see a new option (this was me a few years ago)... Plus... It's a pretty big sign when Financial Samurai is the first voice of reason in the comments. (Sam writes intentionally controversial posts on his own blog that sometimes have big logic gaps)
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secretwealth
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Jacob also mentioned this in the first reply (with the Planck quite)
what we're doing is currently alien to 99% of the population. We're a counterculture.. And until the Planck evolution he mentioned, we will be seen in a bad light by many people. It's one thing for us to decide that ERE is good for us as individuals (step1).. It is another challenge to come to terms with not fitting in right now (step 2). There are few places or groups where we can choose ERE without also making ourselves outsiders in some ways.
I think being an INTx (Myers Briggs) is almost a necessity for being able to accept or embrace bring seen as an outcast.
what we're doing is currently alien to 99% of the population. We're a counterculture.. And until the Planck evolution he mentioned, we will be seen in a bad light by many people. It's one thing for us to decide that ERE is good for us as individuals (step1).. It is another challenge to come to terms with not fitting in right now (step 2). There are few places or groups where we can choose ERE without also making ourselves outsiders in some ways.
I think being an INTx (Myers Briggs) is almost a necessity for being able to accept or embrace bring seen as an outcast.
The authors reaction was shocking but haven't we all experienced this reaction before from our peers?
When I first took a 1.5 yr hiatus from working a friend I knew kept hounding me to join his startup. For fun I designed their first prototype for free. It was like casual sex in the intellectual sense. When personalities clashed I gave him the design and stopped showing up at his garage. He flew into a rage. "you need to work, you have no money!". I told him no, I actually have money and I don't need to do a damn thing. I designed his widget for fun. He kept phoning and telling me retired is not living in my tear down house and driving my 30 yr old car to garage sales. when he started to yell this I'd hang up. "you need to work" he kept saying...as if he'd seen my financials. Very belligerent response from a guy who liked blaming his financial problems on politics...when the problem was in the mirror.
Then there's my sister I've posted about. When I quit my job this year she called up. Mom has dementia but she somehow remembered to tell sis I quit. Sis calls in the middle of the day and says mom said the weirdest thing that you quit. She was pissed. She said I need to go back to work. "you need to work!". Same stuff all over. She still sends me job postings.
Finally it was my boss of two weeks before I quit my last post. After I resigned to my new boss he said,"I would be really impressed if that were true you were actually retiring.". I really hate being called a liar, but I guess that's what he was saying. Most people at work were so belligerent about it I had to change my story to taking time off to survive my final month. If I had a dollar for every coworker who approached me and said "I cannot believe you're doing this.". Not as in, you're such a great guy I cannot believe you're dumping me but more you're poor you must be stupid! Maybe if my S class was 30 days old and not 30 years old they'd be happier about it. Seriously they were as cheerful as you are when your coworker hits the lottery.
Maybe all these folks took too much joy in my apparent misery. The reality slapped too hard. They all had one thing in common. They were hyper competitive ambitious employee types. They don't like losing. Sounds like, " no that's not retired, you are cheating!!!"
So I'm not too shocked about the response. Not to bash bloggers but a blog isn't a peer reviewed/edited venue. Isn't a blog just regurgitated information mixed with commentary?
When I first took a 1.5 yr hiatus from working a friend I knew kept hounding me to join his startup. For fun I designed their first prototype for free. It was like casual sex in the intellectual sense. When personalities clashed I gave him the design and stopped showing up at his garage. He flew into a rage. "you need to work, you have no money!". I told him no, I actually have money and I don't need to do a damn thing. I designed his widget for fun. He kept phoning and telling me retired is not living in my tear down house and driving my 30 yr old car to garage sales. when he started to yell this I'd hang up. "you need to work" he kept saying...as if he'd seen my financials. Very belligerent response from a guy who liked blaming his financial problems on politics...when the problem was in the mirror.
Then there's my sister I've posted about. When I quit my job this year she called up. Mom has dementia but she somehow remembered to tell sis I quit. Sis calls in the middle of the day and says mom said the weirdest thing that you quit. She was pissed. She said I need to go back to work. "you need to work!". Same stuff all over. She still sends me job postings.
Finally it was my boss of two weeks before I quit my last post. After I resigned to my new boss he said,"I would be really impressed if that were true you were actually retiring.". I really hate being called a liar, but I guess that's what he was saying. Most people at work were so belligerent about it I had to change my story to taking time off to survive my final month. If I had a dollar for every coworker who approached me and said "I cannot believe you're doing this.". Not as in, you're such a great guy I cannot believe you're dumping me but more you're poor you must be stupid! Maybe if my S class was 30 days old and not 30 years old they'd be happier about it. Seriously they were as cheerful as you are when your coworker hits the lottery.
Maybe all these folks took too much joy in my apparent misery. The reality slapped too hard. They all had one thing in common. They were hyper competitive ambitious employee types. They don't like losing. Sounds like, " no that's not retired, you are cheating!!!"
So I'm not too shocked about the response. Not to bash bloggers but a blog isn't a peer reviewed/edited venue. Isn't a blog just regurgitated information mixed with commentary?
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secretwealth
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"Seriously they were as cheerful as you are when your coworker hits the lottery."
And that's what it is, isn't it? Someone found a way out of the rat race and those stuck in it use whatever coping skills they have (anger at the system, rationalization, self-delusion to think that they are in fact living in the best of all possible worlds) to handle their jealousy.
I'd also like to suggest that the reverse can happen too: ERErs can rationalize as a coping mechanism. It's only human nature.
And that's what it is, isn't it? Someone found a way out of the rat race and those stuck in it use whatever coping skills they have (anger at the system, rationalization, self-delusion to think that they are in fact living in the best of all possible worlds) to handle their jealousy.
I'd also like to suggest that the reverse can happen too: ERErs can rationalize as a coping mechanism. It's only human nature.
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DividendGuy
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I usually don't respond to articles like these, and refrained from even reading the comments over at The Today Show's site. I couldn't help myself on this one as I feel like he made it a bit personal. Unfortunate that more people can't live and let live. It's always this "if you don't think like I do, then you're stupid" stuff. Very, very ignorant and childish. Really sad!
Live how you want and I'll live how I want.
Live how you want and I'll live how I want.
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secretwealth
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