The way of the sea turtle or Music and Life, or both?
Some believe that the concepts that govern our thoughts - how we get around the world, how we relate to others, who we are - are often visualized as metaphor.
The two conceptual metaphors above seem to conflict with one another. One suggests that setting goals and working toward them is THE way. Long-term seeking. The sea turtle's 9000 mile migration back to the beach where it was born. The other suggests that the goal itself isn't the goal at all. It's the journey that counts.
What do you think? Is there any way to reconcile the two?
Conceptual Metaphors: The Way of the Sea Turtle -or- Life as Music ?
I think this way. We are travelers got lost in a dangerous rain forest. We did not know we are in danger until something smack on our head and wake us up. We find guidence to find our way out of the forest. Along the way, we do not feel discourage because there are many like us. We enjoy whatever scenery offer during our journey, good or bad, until one day, we reach safety.
Well, sea turtles only have reptilian brains, so the are more like GPS devices that are endlessly recalculating.
That being said, I would vote for both, with a stronger emphasis on Music and Life for humans. And for gosh sakes, have more than one goal!
An an aside, Alfred Russel Wallace was much more interesting than Darwin. He was like a real-life Indiana Jones, who wasn't high enough up in the English class system to get the credit he deserved. For an excellent bio of him and the times he lived in read "The Heretic in Darwin's Court", summarized and reviewed here: http://www.amazon.com/The-Heretic-Darwi ... in_title_0
That being said, I would vote for both, with a stronger emphasis on Music and Life for humans. And for gosh sakes, have more than one goal!
An an aside, Alfred Russel Wallace was much more interesting than Darwin. He was like a real-life Indiana Jones, who wasn't high enough up in the English class system to get the credit he deserved. For an excellent bio of him and the times he lived in read "The Heretic in Darwin's Court", summarized and reviewed here: http://www.amazon.com/The-Heretic-Darwi ... in_title_0
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jacob
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IT's a bit like asking of a photon is a wave or a particle, no? It's neither, but it exhibits behavior that can be modeled as either of the two depending on the circumstances.
Similarly, a strategy is one or more goals and a set of plans/thoughts on how to achieve them.
There can be one goal or there can be several substitutable ones.
There can be one way of getting there or several.
The focus can be on the immediate or it can be on the long term. You inevitably get good at what you focus at.
ERE is none of the above.
Similarly, a strategy is one or more goals and a set of plans/thoughts on how to achieve them.
There can be one goal or there can be several substitutable ones.
There can be one way of getting there or several.
The focus can be on the immediate or it can be on the long term. You inevitably get good at what you focus at.
ERE is none of the above.
@ToFi
We enjoy whatever scenery offer during our journey, good or bad, until one day, we reach safety.
And then what? What happens at safety?
@Dragline, I added the "both" knowing you would point out the false dichotomy. The other day I was in the middle of a heated conversation with a friend who presented two distinct alternatives and I "pulled a Dragline". BOTH! I demanded. Why does it have to be one or the other. I am glad you consistently perform that function here. It is easy to fall into lazy thinking and simply accept the alternatives presented as reality.
@jacob, For many retirement and ERE are viewed as a sort of finish line. The end of a journey. The aim toward which our strategy is directing us. FI (financial independence) can also be viewed as an either-or. Either I am financially independent or I'm not. At some point I cross the magic line between the two.
Part of the problem with these ideas are the words. They are loaded and mean different things to different people. OTOH we tend to focus in large part on the money, numbers.... goals.
You inevitably get good at what you focus at.
I'm wondering if it wouldn't make sense to consciously shift focus away from the money and security aspects of ERE (which, I have to admit, are tempting) and to focus directly on an eternal fostering of the Renaissance Man. Should the defining strategy focus on a never-ending change - a change that has FI (ER) as one piece? Should we focus on a change that is a never ending evolution toward Renaissancianism?
Maybe we need a pilot-wave quantum mechanics metaphor to live by.
We enjoy whatever scenery offer during our journey, good or bad, until one day, we reach safety.
And then what? What happens at safety?
@Dragline, I added the "both" knowing you would point out the false dichotomy. The other day I was in the middle of a heated conversation with a friend who presented two distinct alternatives and I "pulled a Dragline". BOTH! I demanded. Why does it have to be one or the other. I am glad you consistently perform that function here. It is easy to fall into lazy thinking and simply accept the alternatives presented as reality.
@jacob, For many retirement and ERE are viewed as a sort of finish line. The end of a journey. The aim toward which our strategy is directing us. FI (financial independence) can also be viewed as an either-or. Either I am financially independent or I'm not. At some point I cross the magic line between the two.
Part of the problem with these ideas are the words. They are loaded and mean different things to different people. OTOH we tend to focus in large part on the money, numbers.... goals.
You inevitably get good at what you focus at.
I'm wondering if it wouldn't make sense to consciously shift focus away from the money and security aspects of ERE (which, I have to admit, are tempting) and to focus directly on an eternal fostering of the Renaissance Man. Should the defining strategy focus on a never-ending change - a change that has FI (ER) as one piece? Should we focus on a change that is a never ending evolution toward Renaissancianism?
Maybe we need a pilot-wave quantum mechanics metaphor to live by.
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jacob
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@Ego - Yes, I wish people would stop looking so hard at the dollar values. They're fun in the beginning, but at some point I think it's best to move on and concentrate on other aspects of living. There's much more to it/ERE than amassing a portfolio. In addition being portfolio dependent is risky. It's one thing being a consumer for 30 years in a world that looks out for old people. It's another thing to be a consumer for 3/4 of century ... even with more money.
My view of ERE is not simply an early version of ER. It's not a difference of degree in years to accumulate a portfolio, but a difference in kind in terms of looking at the world.
Even FI is not a well-defined point. Rather, the SWR numbers we all use are simply an estimate of something that can not be measured. We can use 3% and say that FI has been reached ... but what if the central bank has an Argentina or Cyprus moment?
To me FI is just one tool in a multitool strategy [that is, ERE] for making it through the next 75 years. For most people, their one tool is their job. I'd hate to only have one tool.
My view of ERE is not simply an early version of ER. It's not a difference of degree in years to accumulate a portfolio, but a difference in kind in terms of looking at the world.
Even FI is not a well-defined point. Rather, the SWR numbers we all use are simply an estimate of something that can not be measured. We can use 3% and say that FI has been reached ... but what if the central bank has an Argentina or Cyprus moment?
To me FI is just one tool in a multitool strategy [that is, ERE] for making it through the next 75 years. For most people, their one tool is their job. I'd hate to only have one tool.
Both
Its like I have a ship which can travel in any direction, but I am moored in paradise, only for some reason some people can't see it. Whereas others travel to other paradises (ie spend money land) for the experience, excitement, they go there hoping it will bring happiness. I've been to some of those islands, and they are beautiful, but It doesn't make me any happier.
I enjoy experiencing the world right here, learning new things, making things and interacting with those i care about (isn't skype wonderful!)
My life is not for everyone, but who said we have to live in a way that makes everyone else happy.
Having all your ducks in a row like the turtle, well it means I really get to experience what I enjoy, be it watching the birds, slowly drinking a cup of coffee, or spending time with friends and not having to rush.
Sometimes its like I'm at sea and logs come along I need to move the ship (and ducks) but I can still head in the same direction, just travel around it, I just have to adapt my glasses and have another look at the view in the distance, to make sure I'm heading for the right island.
Or a better way - I'm shaken in my moorings by a tsunami wave which undid my moorings, but given time that wave will die down and I'll return to my mooring, which will look different, will still be paradise and I'll enjoy the ride
But I am in control of the ship.
So in short my answer is both, the sea turtle approach, but a sea turtle that experiences and is content, grateful each day and enjoys the journey
Thanks for this opportunity to get my thoughts together Jacob
Its like I have a ship which can travel in any direction, but I am moored in paradise, only for some reason some people can't see it. Whereas others travel to other paradises (ie spend money land) for the experience, excitement, they go there hoping it will bring happiness. I've been to some of those islands, and they are beautiful, but It doesn't make me any happier.
I enjoy experiencing the world right here, learning new things, making things and interacting with those i care about (isn't skype wonderful!)
My life is not for everyone, but who said we have to live in a way that makes everyone else happy.
Having all your ducks in a row like the turtle, well it means I really get to experience what I enjoy, be it watching the birds, slowly drinking a cup of coffee, or spending time with friends and not having to rush.
Sometimes its like I'm at sea and logs come along I need to move the ship (and ducks) but I can still head in the same direction, just travel around it, I just have to adapt my glasses and have another look at the view in the distance, to make sure I'm heading for the right island.
Or a better way - I'm shaken in my moorings by a tsunami wave which undid my moorings, but given time that wave will die down and I'll return to my mooring, which will look different, will still be paradise and I'll enjoy the ride
But I am in control of the ship.
So in short my answer is both, the sea turtle approach, but a sea turtle that experiences and is content, grateful each day and enjoys the journey
Thanks for this opportunity to get my thoughts together Jacob
@Ego
and then what? What happens at safety?
-Then I'll educate others to do the same.
I don't view FI as the end of journey of life. It basically provides food for the journey so we're not burden with spending most our time to find food instead of finding a way out. My reply has more meaning than just money.
and then what? What happens at safety?
-Then I'll educate others to do the same.
I don't view FI as the end of journey of life. It basically provides food for the journey so we're not burden with spending most our time to find food instead of finding a way out. My reply has more meaning than just money.
I refuse to color in the lines on this one.
I am not FI, so I haven't posted in the "ERE Accomplishments" thread, but I've done lots of activities of the sort being listed there as we move toward FI, ERE style, working on many different aspects of our lives.
I will say, it seems people who do not work both sides of the barbell on this one are either miserable today, or miserable tomorrow. I'm sure many of us have had the displeasure of working or playing with someone who is so focused on completing the task they can't actually enjoy it, even if it could/should be fun.
People who live only for the minute are a pain in the ass in their own way too though.
I am not FI, so I haven't posted in the "ERE Accomplishments" thread, but I've done lots of activities of the sort being listed there as we move toward FI, ERE style, working on many different aspects of our lives.
I will say, it seems people who do not work both sides of the barbell on this one are either miserable today, or miserable tomorrow. I'm sure many of us have had the displeasure of working or playing with someone who is so focused on completing the task they can't actually enjoy it, even if it could/should be fun.
People who live only for the minute are a pain in the ass in their own way too though.
Seneca, that's interesting. I have to admit, I was pretty miserable back when I was working a real job. But I was only miserable until we set the goal to "retire". Suddenly at that point a weight was lifted. There was an end (new beginning) that was foreseeably close. I think that must be why we always have something exciting on the horizon. Similar to Jacobs idea of swinging from vine to vine.
http://earlyretirementextreme.com/so-lo ... -fish.html
http://earlyretirementextreme.com/so-lo ... -fish.html