ERE Purgatory

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livinlite
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Post by livinlite »

Meditation helps all day long to the extent that it helps bring about a fundamental shift in one's worldview away from dualistic conceptions and I-Thou relationships to one where life is seen more as a dance of the natural order of things. It lends perspective and gives a framework for making meaning. And it doesn't have to be on the cushion or in a zendo. Anytime we are aware of our inner world and the lens we are creating to bring the outer world into our inner world, we are meditating. And when awareness also encompasses that "we" that is aware; there's the fun stuff.
For adventures in meaning-making from a secular viewpoint, check out David Foster Wallace's speech "This is Water" (available online and in print).
@Jacob, RE: "[My solution to existentialist problems is to ignore them as being unsolvable, alternatively find some substitute religious argument, here stoic. This is not very helpful to the inquiring mind (but why is this so?)." Have you read Tolstoy's "A Confession"? or EF Schumacher's "A Guide for the Perplexed"? Both are excellent, though often overlooked, texts that deal with those issues. Tolstoy ultimately could not "ignore them". Others have had varying success. My personal opinion based on the experiences I've had is that ignoring them never fully burns them out; acceptance is the only way to put these issues to rest once you've let the cat out of the bag.
There's a reason many more Western philosophers committed suicide than Eastern..the fear and trembling unto death is a bitch to deal with if you can't find some way to split through the dualism.


aussierogue
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Post by aussierogue »

Great discussion
I actually think there are conscious and subconscious issues here.
Interestingly i think i have something to add because I am pretty much ERE, have lots of time to myself and i am also interested in Eastern Religion and a qualified meditiation teacher (lol yes you can become qualified at meditation and there are many different kinds - not just buddhist loving kindness type mindlefullness. Medical doctors prescribe secular meditation for anxiety)
Back to conscious and subconscious. Ekhart Tolle describes the idea like this. His entire life was pretty much a succession of failures. Not smart enough to get into medicine so he studied science. Not good enough looking to get a girlfriend so he bcame 'interesting'. Not great in holding down a job so he became internal. As he became internal he found solace and some insight, from this insight he became famous, rich and despite his eccentric look - the ladies seem to like him these days!
Its a bit like a rock star. Outcast in school, beaten up.....some break through becaome heroes and have harems...check out alice cooper if you dont belive me.
So in essense we are all like this
ERE for me can be seen one way - a series of great success's......great job, great savings, great investments, able to retire early, loving life.....(conscious outward presentation)
or
Failure at longevity in thw workplace. Cant really take authority always courted conflict, led to anxiety despite being highly functioning, needed to be more consistent and avoind mood swings at home and at work, became more internal, understood myself more, became more forgiving of weaknesses, and then looked and courted my options, started radical savings plan for the last 10 years banking 60 pct of a large income knowing that everyday in a job was a good one for me and that i needed to make hay (subconscious reality)
Bottom line for me - is ERE is about survival. I cannot go back to full time work without being unhappy. Lucky for me the whole ere has huge benefits. Not only do i dont have to work so much, my mental health is better, i am a better father and husband, i consume less and I feel i know myself more.
So for me ERE isnt a choice any more. Its fundamental to who i am
Thats me anyway
Aussie
btw - meditation just means being mindfull and it can help you realise your subconscious mind. You dont need to be sitting on a mat chanting to do this. Being mindful is a 24 hour thing. Walk down the street and be conscious at noticing things. After a few years like anything else you can become good at being mindfull. But you need to exercise your mind or youll lose it!
Best combo - mindfulness and 30 minutes cardio per day....sweat is the best way to think clearly.


Hoplite
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Post by Hoplite »

@aussierogue,

+1 on Alice Cooper-it bleeds through the music like no other.

+1 also on ERE as a survival mechanism; it allows one to live a humane life without sleeping on a park bench (not that there's anything wrong with that) and learning to eat weeds and boiled squirrels (which is fine if that's your taste).


Maus
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Post by Maus »

@Hoplite

I had to smile because one of the things I plan on doing more post-FI is foraging for wild edible plants. When I was a scout many years ago, I was able to identify more than 25 native California species that were both tasty and nutritious. Buon appetito!


Scott 2
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Post by Scott 2 »

I think having a sense of shared purpose with other people is key to creating that feeling of excitement that makes every day great. IMO it does not really matter what is driving it - beer, tennis, helping the poor, extreme saving, whatever.
I'm to the point now, where if someone ask me if I want to do something, I just agree and go for it full force. Even if I think it's dumb. As long as we're all bought in, it turns out to be a good time.
From what I can see, all of life is pretty much "same shit, different day". Once you and your loved ones are not on the edge of death, none of it really matters. We're just sacks of water doing stuff till we can't. Might as well pretend whatever I am doing now is the most important thing in the world, and make the most of it.
An optimist might say "life is a journey, not a destination."


aussierogue
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Post by aussierogue »

Nice take scott
another way of saying living in the moment i guess.
What was that song from the 70's
"love the one you're with"


Chad
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Post by Chad »

I really struggle with what Scott stated, but completely agree. I'm always over analysing everything to where it becomes a task and not something to enjoy.


Scott 2
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Post by Scott 2 »

The analysis is the fun part :) I assume most here are prone to it. I derive great satisfaction from breaking something down and understanding it.
I find with the right group, this can be a strength. Other people give me a reality check when I need it. Meanwhile, I help them avoid doing things that are obviously irrational, at least to me.
Left to my own devices, I will definitely go down the paralysis by analysis rabbit hole. Books and forums are a huge problem for me. I'll spend hundreds of hours reading on something, long past the point of diminishing returns. After more than a decade on the internet, I am aware of this weakness, but I often can't help myself.
Back to the original poster - my experience is going through the motions at work, even if you do it well, is really unpleasant. I understand not everyone is like this, but I am. It sounds like you could be too.
The only way I can be happy with a job is if I am constantly trying to get better at it. At best, I derive fleeting satisfaction from the work completed or the paycheck. It is all about making the creation process and resulting end product "better". Knowing what I do helps my coworkers provide for their families will help for short gaps in time, but long term, I have to get that fix of continuous improvement.
My suggestion - invest more of yourself in your job as long as you are working it. Groom your replacement, create a process that will ensure their success. Make it a goal to make yourself completely replacable. When that is done, you have earned the right to move on.
When that time comes, if it turns out you are not ready to - you are more valuable than ever.


Maus
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Post by Maus »

I understand what @Scott2 is driving at in his first post (i.e. not the immediately preceeding one). On one level, as an extrovert I enjoy the company of people and will agree to outings more for the company than the event. And to be truly rooted in the activity of the moment is necessary for the psychological state of flow.
But on another level, if I've done something before that I loathed, almost nothing will induce me to agree to do it again. And I reject some activities that I've never done simply on principle, e.g. parachuting or bungy jumping. In those cases, the risk versus reward calculation triggers my aversion. I forgo these activities despite the adage that you only truly regret what you haven't done, not the things that you've done and wish you could repent. Mostly it's a product of self-awareness. I know from experience that I am not an adrenaline junky.
So, while I admire the animating spirit of Scott2's advice, I have to temper it with the caveat to be true to your self as well.


J_
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Location: Netherlands/Austria

Post by J_ »

I am FI for 13 years now. Last 4 winter months I have spend on a snowy high plateau in Austria, learning for the second year the skill of freestyle cross country skiing, allmost every day in every wheather. I have learned to adapt to every possible change of the snow surface, downhill, flat or uphill. My physical condition has improved. In the evenings I have studied Spinoza an read the treads of ERE, read many other books in Dutch, read a French book about Spinoza's Ethica, sentence by sentence. Trying to grasp his wonderfull description of a fullfiling life.

Next week I go to my other home in the Netherlands, and will try to sell the last part of my real estate portfolio in a difficult market, revive my pianoplaying and go tourcycling in summer.

In other words I have learned being FI, and set goals for the future.

As you start for ERE, start at the same time your imagination for the situation after ERE.


Spartan_Warrior
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Post by Spartan_Warrior »

Epic thread. I loved livinlite's comparison of ERE with a traditional monastic lifestyle. Great post. I totally agree. To me ERE/FI is the lifestyle that best embodies and permits my personal quest for meaning.
As for OP's situation, this strikes me as a natural transitory period. We are highly conditioned to believe in the work>retirement>death progression. Breaking out of that is bound to be a shock to your system. Your body (and mind) seem to be coping pre-emptively.
There's a lot of clutter associated with the 9-5 lifestyle. Not just physical clutter, but emotional, spiritual, and especially temporal clutter. Without that clutter to fill our lives, in some sense our "true selves" are laid bare. We have to find something of meaning to fill the void. Some of us have an idea of what this is, and it motivates us to pursue FI. Some of us have to find it. Perhaps that's the root question. What motivated you to pursue ERE in the first place? For me, it was a desire to write novels and work on other creative hobbies that are generally long shots at producing reliable income. As mikenotspam points out, there is free time even in a workday to devote to these endeavors, and I do; but I can't wait to devote myself full-time, without the constant stress and hassle of work.
I would recommend starting on some projects and see if something grabs you. In my experience, it really, really helps if there are other people involved somehow. Then the motivation kicks in.


JulianoBR
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Post by JulianoBR »

It seems FI people has achieved the very last step of Maslow's hierarchy of needs.
The ultimate mission in human life may be to become a philosopher.
Jacob's quote "There are maybe 100 different abstract concepts known to humanity. What happens when one reaches the point of this is similar to everything I've already done?" seems pessimist at first sight. The great question is if humans do have a finite set of concepts which can be experimented.


J_
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Location: Netherlands/Austria

Post by J_ »

@Juliano I think your are spot on with your remark that the last step of a FI is to become a philosopher.

Still FI is not static, I make plans for the next 40 Years, in steps of 5 years. I know that the further I plan, how more it will be unsure. I know very well how mortal I am. But making plans is fun and make you think of the direction you like to go.

But many things I know allready eg: learn what to eat (especially what not) and what your body requires to stay fit: and apply that knowledge every day. The discipline with one forged his FI, is the same as to stay as long as possible beeing independent in your whole life.
I try to find out what in what kind of environment I feel best in the different seasons, and be there in that season. I keep with the ERE principles (of sustanability). I am adventourous, curious and find out new things/ study new fields.
Jacob wrote somewhere that he read many biographies, but did not find the answers he sought.

I look at my neighbours, especially the elderly, and speak with them about how they live so well. I learn by looking and listening. These fora and blog is an excellent study-place for me.

I am thankfull to Jacob that he still keeps everything going. Letts give him a cheer!


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jennypenny
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Post by jennypenny »

"I think having a sense of shared purpose with other people is key to creating that feeling of excitement"

I thought about Scott2's comment last night while watching the basketball tournament. I think sports fill this need when people can't get that feeling from their jobs.
@juliano-"The ultimate mission in human life may be to become a philosopher." I think there is a place for philosophers, but (for most people) spending your life just contemplating how you should live it seems wasteful to me. Living your life and acting on your philosophy seems like it would be most fulfilling. I find the most satisfaction when I finally decide on a path and start down it. Time should be spent contemplating all options, but if you never choose one, what was the point? It's like considering the merits of every flavor of ice cream but never eating any.


aussierogue
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Post by aussierogue »

@jennypenny
someone wise once said lifes ills can be traced back to mans inability to sit still..
The buddhists and many others believe that "being" is enough..
Contemplation doesn't necessarily have a destination.
Contemplation can lead to a simpler less desructive way of life..
Doesnt mean one is unproductive
but i get what you mean!...i just reckon we need to sit still a bit more..


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jennypenny
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Post by jennypenny »

@aussierogue--I understand your point, and I try not to judge others for being idle. I guess I'm just not wired that way (wise or buddhist :)


djc
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Post by djc »

@J,
This reminds me when I x-c skied for a whole winter. It was one of the highlights of my ERE time---a reward somewhat.
djc


newb
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Post by newb »

"One solution is to find something else to live for with the job just being a secondary thing. This actually seems to be the normal state of being for most people. Their primary interest is their family, their travels, their interior decorating, their sports team, or whatever.

I have no idea what to do about this since I have the same problem. What I do/think about is very much like a relationship to me which seems to be a form of serial monogamy that lasts 5-10 years for each interest. My concern is in reaching a sort of "been there, done that" state for everything [interesting] one can possible do. Done academia, done semi-elite sports, done the visiting of a dozen+ countries, done living in other countries, done a book, done a popular website, done a nonprofit, done a bunch of hobbies, done several small businesses, now doing finance, ... what next?" -Jacob
Being that I'm new here, and the type of no nonsense person that always found philosephers the type of people that "think deep thoughts about being unemployed"; I think a some of you are overthinking way too much about things. Bigato and Aussierogue hit it on the head. The point of life is to enjoy the moment. Find new experiences. Try simply to just "Be". And, Jacob, your point about "been there, done that" tells me that perhaps either you havent mastered anything fully, or that your choices were too easy...not insulting you, just stating that many things in life are like an onion, they have multiple layers of meaning. Just because you did them for awhile and got tired of them, does that really mean you "mastered them"? No one human can master everything. Very few even master one thing, though we tend to be like insects, focused only on one or two tasks to the exclusion of all others. Take combative firearms training for example, like I do. Just doing it for a period of time at a static range gets the basic skills down, but good luck developing the unconscious instict when stressed, the timing, the placement, the accuracy, repeatable followups when moving under stress by multiple opponents using different types of weapons, rapidly changing environments, etc. Not the same kettle of fish at all. Takes decades to "master it". I am not insinuating that your achievements are unworthy at all, just that its time to find new hobbies, and perhaps change how you view the world.


Felix
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Post by Felix »

On the problem of understanding all the high-level abstractions, I doubt you'll need to worry. The easy cure for that is to start experimenting yourself and trying to find out new stuff. With all abstraction being blown to pieces by that nasty reality, you will end up having to rebuild. Try reading Charles Fort, General semantics stuff. Watch Maybe Logic.
Meditation was mentioned. That's a good way to go. Even when you don't meditate, you end up with more "living in the moment" vs. "living inside your head", thus being exposed more to things outside the tidy mental framework you've built. Keeps you on your toes.
Also, try to entertain notions that you find nonsensical and try and explain the world that way. Chaos Magic is a fun way to do this. Learn to hypnotize yourself. Once you realize that the map is not the territory, you will have a hard time entertaining the notion that you could even possibly master anything to a degree that you might get bored within a human lifetime.


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Ego
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Re:

Post by Ego »

jennypenny wrote:Re: meditation

I think it does help. I go to Mass in the morning (religious version of meditation), and then go to the gym for a couple hours. The combination seems to quiet my mind enough for the rest of the day. If I skip a day, I find my mind churns endlessly all day. I'm constantly calculating outcomes and possible variations on almost everything I do (can't think of a better way to say that). I assumed it was an INT* thing. Maybe it's just my own undiagnosed issue.
Jenny, this guy came up with a guided meditation just for you...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92i5m3tV5XY

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