What is your FIRE number? Your expected FIRE expenses?

[IlliniDave]

I also think most people on this forum who are smart enough to achieve FI through extreme savings/investment are also smart enough to spot an opportunity when it comes along, or otherwise reject it simply because it's not what you want to do even if it would be an area of personal growth. There's no shame in coasting on what you have already achieved.

+1. A main goal of mine is to make getting out and trying to scrape up money optional (aside from the fact that maintaining an investment portfolio is a money-making activity). I don't know if I'll ever do much as a retiree that would meet the conventional definitions of personal growth or productivity either. Of course, I'm neither ERE- nor EER-bound. I've worked my way to a point where piling up money is easy and I have no problem taking the most efficient path, which is to FI predicated on a superabundance of assets.

[jacob]

@rube - The simplest way to differentiate ERE and E-RE is that the difference exists on a scale from 0% to 100%. Maybe I could build some questionaire that would "score" people from 1 to 100 but of course it's not that simple.

The greater difference lies in diversification. How many different ways do you have to create/get/acquire/buy/procure what you need to live? It's better to have a bunch of skills that just to have one skill ... or even more risky to become FI by winning the lottery.

Of course, as we say in finance, diversification is just "poor man's risk control", so the big step is to transition to the web-of-goal, where skills are deliberately connected together so as to mutually support each other's strengths and compensate for each other's weaknesses in terms of skills and other life aspects. This is what I call the web-of-goals (see ERE book chapter 5 or parts of the wiki ... Podcast #30 on ValiantGrowth also talked about it ).

All of these are more of a difference in kind or class than a difference in degree---although you can have differences of degree inside each of them.

So there are three different kind of ways to approach life.

E-ER where all income was made by mastering one high income job and learning how to get a cheap cell phone plan; where to get the best credit card; and which car lasts the longest, amongst other life-hack choices is level 1. (This group is pretty much the only one where I worry about blind application of the 4% rule.) I think anyone at this level can be recognized by being hyper-focused on "the number!"

FIRE, where one has made income in a bunch of different ways and made enough money to ultimately reach FI. Add a bunch of activities that further lower the cost-of-living as well. Should FI fail, there would be a bunch of ways to go and earn more money. There would also be a bunch of ways to go and not-spend money. This is level 2.

ERE is the full web of goals approach. Also see, viewtopic.php?p=74349#p74349 This is level 3.

I think much like personality tests, etc. everybody has a bit from all levels but they vary in strength.

@cmonkey - Back in 2011, I remember having long and boring debates with the ER people from early-retirement.org about how me doing any kind of paid work would break all the rules of early retirement: That whole "you're not supposed to get paid again ever" beach-towel argument. I think many who are capable of achieving E-FIRE have a hard time letting go of the exuberance that led them there. I also understand how flanneurism(SP?) is a counter-reaction to this. In any case, continued value-generation does provide for some floor than money can't provide. Not just security, but also connections, meaning, interesting activities, etc.

[Scott 2]

The more money I have, the less an absolute FI number makes sense.

Going back to day one now, I'd probably never worry about net worth or safe withdrawal rates. Skill based control of expenses, coupled with doing things that make me feel valued as a person, would be my focus. It'd mean a significantly different path than I took over the last fifteen years.

Once my current job plays out, that's my plan. It's likely I'll never delve into my savings. Doing "nothing" gets really boring. It feels good to help people with stuff. Sometimes they give you money for that...

[Eureka]

Going back to day one now, I'd probably never worry about net worth or safe withdrawal rates. Skill based control of expenses, coupled with doing things that make me feel valued as a person, would be my focus.

Thanks for sharing. This will be my inspiration.

[cmonkey]

Yes flaneurism.... I suspect my being drawn to that is the outcome of working in a fast moving rigid work place where it's taken for granted that you are always "on". My natural reaction is to counter it by wanting to be lazy.

I'm sure once I'm done working I will find the right balance. I don't know that I will ever build any form of social capital though, even if it's the best you can build.

[Did]

Once my current job plays out, that's my plan. It's likely I'll never delve into my savings. Doing "nothing" gets really boring. It feels good to help people with stuff. Sometimes they give you money for that...

Depends on how skilled you are at enjoying yourself !

I'm still having wild adventures with my wife. I have no desire to be productive really. I want freedom, adventure and to experience all I can having dodged the traditional work nightmare before I got too old to do so.

Granted its only been three years. But its not old yet.

Yeah if life was dull with the partner, due to kids probably, I'd try and find some form of pleasure by helping out at the retirement village or whatnot, but thankfully I'm not in that position.

[BRUTE]

so EER is a highly leveraged but narrow path to success, whereas ERE is highly diversified but rarely as leveraged in any particular area?

[ThisDinosaur]

There is a stereotype of E-ER that is being criticized. The 27-ish year old minimalist with a religious faith in the 4% rule and the US TSM who plans to fill the gaps with 'side-hustles' and writing a travel blog. While this person may seem very naïve to readers of ERE, I think the two decades+ they have to run out of money is enough time to learn something else about investing and/or self sufficiency. Just because they are in the internet retirement police now, doesn't mean they wont progress along the Wheaton levels in time.

I second what Scott 2 said about changing focus over time. You can start, like I did, being motivated by having enough money to never have to worry about money. Then, you can learn that not needing money is a strong parallel way to accomplish the same thing. Life hacks can be like a starter drug for true independence. It's easy to fall into the Identity Trap of thinking that other peoples' FI motives are the same as your own, or that they will remain unchanged over a lifetime.

Even before I saw extensive criticism of the 4% rule, I was planning to save for a 2-3%SWR because I believe taxes tend to increase over time more often than decrease. Also, I am more of an ant than a grasshopper and would rather have saved too much than too little.

[cmonkey]

There is a stereotype of E-ER that is being criticized. The 27-ish year old minimalist with a religious faith in the 4% rule and the US TSM who plans to fill the gaps with 'side-hustles' and writing a travel blog. While this person may seem very naïve to readers of ERE, I think the two decades+ they have to run out of money is enough time to learn something else about investing and/or self sufficiency. Just because they are in the internet retirement police now, doesn't mean they wont progress along the Wheaton levels in time.

Well if this is who we are talking about, I certainly don't fit that description. I really don't know where I fall on the EER-ERE scale. Maybe some examples of ERE web-of-goals lifestyle hacks would be appropriate for learning? There is the standard 'live by work/walk everywhere' example, but this is the best I know of. Substitute public transit for walking if you do that.

Some web-of-goals hacks from my life include my seed shop (which funds my homesteading), learning how to use our public transit system and developing different but parallel passive income streams that could be substituted for each other. That's about all I can think of. Maybe I'm making this out to be more complex than I thought and these are good examples.

[IlliniDave]

There's an investing web site I occasionally participate on where I often find myself saying, "There is no one-size-fits-all best way of doing things." The main thing is to have Available Resources > Ongoing Needs for Contentedness. Whether you pile up enough money to forge a sledgehammer to achieve that or forgo money completely and homestead, or anything along the continuum between, it will potentially get the job done. Everyone needs to find what resonates with them and pursue it with whatever prudence they can muster.

Speaking simply for myself, I'm not real comfortable in the realm of 'side hustles' or starting micro-businesses or what not. Hats off to those who thrive in that environment, but my path to quality of life follows a different route. And to me what's important is living life in a way that makes me feel as fully alive as possible. I don't care what Wheaton level that is or how smart or dumb I am in the eyes of the erudite. I do care how I feel at the end of a day listening to the birds and insects sing while the sun sets. I want to feel *there*. (Low ambitions make the condition AR>ONC easier to meet ).

It's not hard to imagine that a stress that would make Person A miserable and possibly send them to an early grave would give Person B the 'edge' he needs to thrive.

[GandK]

+1 to every word @IlliniDave just said.

I wish there were an official Wheatonesque scale for ER levels just for clarity in these discussions. But I know I'd be in a middling position on one if it existed, and will probably always be. I've yet to be made happy by anything I've taken to extremes.

[Dragline]

Let's just say "Enough is enough, and enough is subjective" and leave it at that.

Your challenge -- should you choose to accept it -- is to define "enough" in a manner that is both practically achievable and reasonably satisfying for you.

[cmonkey]

I do care how I feel at the end of a day listening to the birds and insects sing while the sun sets. I want to feel *there*.

You took the words right out of my mind. All hell could break out, I'd be living in a hut in the woods eating bark....but the sun would still shine and I'd probably still smile.

I think a lot of this also depends on how risk averse you are individually. This has a lot of bearing on how far down the ERE path you go, as opposed to simply staying near EER.

[TopHatFox]

[Ego]

There's an investing web site I occasionally participate on where I often find myself saying, "There is no one-size-fits-all best way of doing things."

True, it is subjective. But that subjectivity does not change the fact that there are some options that are...
1) always, for everyone, more ideal than others
2) statistically more likely to produce ideal results than others

[IlliniDave]

There's an investing web site I occasionally participate on where I often find myself saying, "There is no one-size-fits-all best way of doing things."

True, it is subjective. But that subjectivity does not change the fact that there are some options that are...
1) always, for everyone, more ideal than others
2) statistically more likely to produce ideal results than others

Whose definition of ideal?

[Ego]

Yours.

ETA, Future-you.

[IlliniDave]

Yours.

ETA, Future-you.

Okay, so we're right back to what I said, as I would contend that ideal for me and ideal for everyone ex-me is not the same thing.

[Did]

Jacob has sometimes pointed out that some people have a zero cost of living. I think that was one of his goals in the about page. Obviously the whole thing is extremely subjective and personal. There are an unlimited number of ways to skin the cat. Obsessing over what is and isn't ERE is just as pointless for the average punter. ERE is largely Jacob's journey and what worked for him. There are millions of people - billions - happy with their path in this life. If you find yours, well, good for you.

[Ego]

I don't know if I'll ever do much as a retiree that would meet the conventional definitions of personal growth or productivity either.

There are an unlimited number of ways to skin the cat.

You may be right. The way I see it, taking the leap with an anti-growth mindset is tantamount to jumping out of a plane without a parachute. But I guess I could be wrong.