What is your FIRE number? Your expected FIRE expenses?

[Noedig]

We're on the level 4 "Embracing Efficiency" part of the Wheaton scale. Thanks for posting that as an image, Jacob.

Savings just went over 1m this week: however is gross of low interest debt so not there yet. Hence going back to work.

Retirement expenses have many variables due to personal circumstances. Hence uncertain. Hence going back to work.

Think once have 1.5m will reconsider and hopefully bail out of work again.

[Bankai]

Plan A is £100k and paid off flat.

Plan B is just £100k.

Current expenses are £5-6k pa, expected ERE expenses below £5k or below £4k with paid off flat. I expect to still be making some money in various ways.

[TopHatFox]

Savings just went over 1m this week

I'd like to nonchalantly pass the 1m line in a few years time too. Nice job.

[Stahlmann]

I can't take MMM seriously. He does not include the implied income value of a paid-up $400,000 house in his annual expenses. He should at least consider the foregone income of 400K worth of 30-year government bonds as equivalent. His $24K annual expenses would then increase by an additional $16K. This is important as housing expenses are a huge part of my annual expenses and for most people as well. An adjusted $40K annual expenses is by no stretch of the imagination a major achievement in frugality or economical living. Many many people in the USA live on this income level.

How was he able to ,,stash his cash"?
I mean how [/where in terms of expenditures] he lived during his saving part of life.

[NPV]

I'm mostly concerned about liability and tort-reform. Umbrella was added for that reason since our NW began to exceed the liability on other insurances.

Jacob,

Isn't it possible in the US for a court to award to the plaintiff more than the net worth of the defendant? E.g., defendant has net worth of X and umbrella insurance of X. Court awards plaintiff 2X hence both are gone.

In addition, umbrella insurance can even increase one's attractiveness as a lawsuit target as there is now a larger pool of money available for a payout.

Wouldn't something like storing most of your net worth in an offshore trust or other asset protection vehicle be a more robust solution?

[Fish]

The legendary thread is revived!

@NPV - Depending on your insurance limits, a plaintiff may be convinced that accepting a settlement for the liability+umbrella amount may be preferable to the uncertainty of a trial. Furthermore, some assets in your NW are shielded from creditors even in bankruptcy, reducing the additional amount that can be awarded by going to trial. See this post on Bogleheads: https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewto ... 6#p2916036

An answer to the question about other asset protection methods was hinted at on page 9 of this thread, in the quote below. At some point, the increase in perceived safety simply isn't worth the effort. Think of this in terms of expected value - you are insuring yourself against events that are ever more improbable. At some point the effort-reward ratio is such that you will simply accept the risk and move on with life. (@jacob - Let us know if you would prefer speaking for yourself instead of us quoting things you have written in the past. I've found you to be remarkably consistent with your views and attitudes across time.)

I think working for the sake of more money (or perceived safety) gets really hard to justify past 1% SWR. At that point it's not a question of whether there's enough anymore. It becomes a black swan question which can no longer be hedged with additional money.

Edit: Fixed link

[NPV]

Thanks Fish. The link unfortunately does not open.

My main purpose behind this question is to see if there are additional considerations behind a choice which I have not thought about and which would change my view on which choice is preferable.

[wolf]

Initially my FIRE number was 350k€. That was 2016, when I started ERE.
Then it became 420k€, due to contingecy planning, margin of safety, conservative investment style.
Nowadays I would say that my FIRE number is lower, due to semi-ERE plans and mindset (shift).
My FIRE expenses would be accordingly lower.

[2Birds1Stone]

This thread is chock full o' nuggets of wisdom and excellent debate. The discussion on E-ER vs. ERE has triggered an existential crisis of sorts, at least in respect to figuring out a path that will be most rewarding while gaining a Wheaton level.

Thinking has changed much like yours, wolf.

2011 - Second full year of career work, earning <$40k/yr and thinking I would need $1m to retire (didn't know about 4% rule), at age 50+
2012 - Discovered FIRE and more specifically MMM, shortly after ERE blog. Thought Jacob was a nutjob and anyone living in an RV/boat/Tinyhouse was pretty much crazy, couldn't imagine living carless, or anything that was prescribed by the ERE crowd. 4% math introduced. Now thinking I would need $900k and could get there by 50.
2014 - get more involved in the FIRE community, figure out I can live ultra luxuriously on $24k/yr and the "number" is now $600k with a goal of age 35
2016 - reread ERE book, and get inspired to think more in terms of flows, spending reassessed and dropped to ~$20k/yr
2018 - Start getting burnt out from full time work (60+ hours a week in my case), cut spending to $18k/yr, while planning to pull plug in early 2020 with ~$500k invested.
Today - questioning everything thanks to these great discussions and unique perspectives.

[prognastat]

Now that I'm heading to divorce and as such need to change plans I vacillate between having enough to cover my own costs only and then FIREing or gathering enough to FIRE a household in case I find a new partner at some point and start a family.

With the first option I can FIRE sooner, however with the latter I'm more prepared in case I do start a household without either me or my hypothetical partner having to work. This would about double the amount necessary and in turn drastically increase the time necessary to reach this.

[ertyu]

Jacob, based on the math, you FIREd at 4.67% SWR.. I think that should be highlighted more often

I guess I feel people on this forum should have a bit more willingness to FIRE early rather than waiting until they exactly their number, whether it's 4% or 3% or 2% or a million bucks.

Also note these were 2009 dollars. Stocks mkt throughs allow for up to 6% swr. Always consider swr in relation to current valuations. Retiring at the bottom of a bear market is the best timing you can possibly have, with the sequence of returns being a tailwind the whole way through the earliest, crucial post-retirement years.

[Western Red Cedar]

@7W5 - I was rereading this thread last night. Lots of great dialogue and perspectives here. Have your perspectives changed after dealing with unexpected health issues? What kind of advice would you give to younger folks who are still stashing away their apples?

[7Wannabe5]

Have your perspectives changed after dealing with unexpected health issues? What kind of advice would you give to younger folks who are still stashing away their apples?

Try to have as much great sex as you can before your body fails on you. Especially if you have any running through the woods with somebody who is inhabiting the masculine energy of the wolf type fantasies.

You can always make more money doing brain in a jar tasks even after you become physically decrepit.

[2Birds1Stone]

Touché

[7Wannabe5]

I also wouldn’t give up any of the years I spent at home with my babies for any amount of compounded interest. Or the fun and excitement I had running my own little business with my dear sister as my partner. I’m pretty much a completely fulfilled human. I just have the challenge now of figuring out how not to be in pain for the next 20 or 30 years.

[WFJ]

"Enjoy present pleasures in such a way not to injure future ones"

Seneca

[7Wannabe5]

Right, but the same holds for a future you suffering from regret as much as pain. Bedsides when better to plan on totally nerding out and making some money than the period where your body doesn’t work so well any more? When you are in pain it is more difficult to enjoy leisure than work. Makes me think that workaholics must suffer from some sort of mental or emotional pain.

[zbigi]

The question also is, how much harder is to make money nerding out as someone in their late fifties than someone in their early twenties. Employers definitely like them young...

[7Wannabe5]

@zbigi:

Well, that’s part of what makes it a potentially interesting experiment. It’s actually kind of boring to be retired at my age when everybody else is doing it. Also, I’m okay with being disabled diversity hire as long as my cubicle is within 2 minutes of a bathroom.

[zbigi]

Fingers crossed then! I'd love to hear your take on a modern corporate environment.