Brexit

[ducknalddon]

Perhaps I shouldn't have used the word extreme, but certainly the left and right of the spectrum.

[BRUTE]

what brute found interesting in that video is that in the mediterranean countries, the anti-EU parties are far left wing (syriza, podemos), whereas in the UK and France, they are far right wing (UKIP, FN).

[saving-10-years]

@BRUTE Opposition to the EU is also found in the UK in the left (some would say extreme left) wing of the Labour party, e.g. Denis Skinner (no accident that Bolsover, his constituency, voted 70% leave). This is partly why there has been anger at Corbyn whose lack of pro-Remain fervor in the recent campaign has been taken by some to be a sign that he wanted out of the EU more than remaining with it (he was pro-leave was in the past).

I realise that the UK press would give the opinion that its only right-wing folk who voted to leave but the demographic data does not stack up. There was a pretty diverse crew in the leave camp. Strangest bedfellows.

[heyhey]

But Brute is right that the anti-EU party in the UK is on the far right wing. Obviously many individuals who wouldn't have voted for that party did vote to leave, because they thought leaving would be better for themselves/their families/communities or even the country as a whole, regardless of how they would have voted in an election.

I think the reason for the anti-EU parties being extremists of both sides in various countries is because leaving the EU will allow more extreme laws to be passed. Countries that leave the EU will no longer have to abide by EU rules on anything from human rights to fishing restrictions. That is essential for an extreme left or right wing government, while middle/liberal governments have less issue with EU rules, since the EU tends to be liberal. For individuals this is only one factor among many, but for political parties I think it is key.

Of course, if the EU government became dominated by extremists of either kind, the position might change ...

[saving-10-years]

Ah yes, UKIP. Apologies @BRUTE, thanks @HeyHey for pointing out.

UKIP as the single-issue UK political party that has been most associated with anti-EU sentiment is on the far right. Agree. It would be wonderful if they would simply fade into the background now we have the result they wanted.

[ducknalddon]

Ah yes, UKIP. Apologies @BRUTE, thanks @HeyHey for pointing out.

UKIP as the single-issue UK political party that has been most associated with anti-EU sentiment is on the far right. Agree. It would be wonderful if they would simply fade into the background now we have the result they wanted.

They are on the far right but they do seem to have made inroads into Labours voter base, which is very strange really. One of my sons friends is a UKIP voter however if you knew anything about his background he should be Labour through and through.

[stayhigh]

Voting on the EU constitution is very different to an in/out referendum, surely you can see this?

Well, both nations said the same thing - we don't want to be part of European Union.

[jacob]

I think the reason for the anti-EU parties being extremists of both sides in various countries is because leaving the EU will allow more extreme laws to be passed. Countries that leave the EU will no longer have to abide by EU rules on anything from human rights to fishing restrictions. That is essential for an extreme left or right wing government, while middle/liberal governments have less issue with EU rules, since the EU tends to be liberal. For individuals this is only one factor among many, but for political parties I think it is key.

(my underline)

I almost agree but I have a slightly different framework for extremist parties(*). Judging by Danish political party history, resistance also concentrates on both wings. Historically, on the left side, the most extreme party was previously quite eager to go join the Soviet Union. On the right side, the party wants a new era of nationalism and they had quite the love-affair with Nazi Germany pre-WWII. Today they're substantially toned down versions of their previous selves. I don't know if that desire is specifically for extreme laws. It could be more a question of which particular supranational org the party wants to join?!

(*) Single-issue parties (like UKIP?) aside.

[heyhey]

I almost agree but I have a slightly different framework for extremist parties(*). Judging by Danish political party history, resistance also concentrates on both wings. Historically, on the left side, the most extreme party was previously quite eager to go join the Soviet Union. On the right side, the party wants a new era of nationalism and they had quite the love-affair with Nazi Germany pre-WWII. Today they're substantially toned down versions of their previous selves. I don't know if that desire is specifically for extreme laws. It could be more a question of which particular supranational org the party wants to join?!

(*) Single-issue parties (like UKIP?) aside.

Do you mean all political parties would ideally wish to join a supranational cluster organisation, a bit like individuals seeking to be part of a community, and the European middle-of-the-road parties' chosen group is the EU, while the extremists are currently without convenient clusters to join in Europe but would create them if compatible extremists managed to take power in relatively close countries at the same time? An interesting (and rather scary) idea and you may well be right!

[radamfi]

To those leavers who just say "get a visa", I had a look at the Netherlands immigration rules for people coming from outside the EU/EEA

https://ind.nl/en/individuals/residence-wizard

there is no option for people who just want to retire, and so not interfere with the labour market. You have to work or study or have 1.25 million euros.

[Egg]

They are on the far right but they do seem to have made inroads into Labours voter base, which is very strange really. One of my sons friends is a UKIP voter however if you knew anything about his background he should be Labour through and through.

This article may go part way to explaining that. https://thegerasites.wordpress.com/2016 ... th-gromit/

Basically, in my view Labour has turned its back on the working class, and is now full of self-righteous middle-class "progressives" who cannot comprehend, and therefore sensible engage with, viewpoints much removed from their own. This is a massive turn-off for their traditional voter base.

[radamfi]

Basically, in my view Labour has turned its back on the working class, and is now full of self-righteous middle-class "progressives" who cannot comprehend, and therefore sensible engage with, viewpoints much removed from their own. This is a massive turn-off for their traditional voter base.

It is a problem with the stupid voting system. In most countries you would have separate socialist and centre-left parties but because of the First Past the Post system you can't have more than one left party that overlap too much with each other, because if they did they would split the vote too much. So Labour needs to be a very broad church between people with very differing views. Similarly for the Conservative Party.

[BRUTE]

other countries also have stupid voting systems. brute hasn't seen one that wasn't stupid.

[radamfi]

I see no leaver has disputed my earlier post from today about Netherlands immigration. So do you admit that some British people that would have been able to live in Europe may not be able to do so in future? And are you happy about that?

[jacob]

@radamfi - See my earlier post: http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com ... 02#p120202

[radamfi]

@radamfi - See my earlier post: http://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com ... 02#p120202

Cheers, sorry I somehow missed that post. Could be useful in the years to come.

Still it looks like there's no direct route to the Netherlands, which is where I actually want to go. The Hungary option might be good for non-Europeans however UK citizens can live in Ireland which should stay after Brexit as that arrangement predates the UK and Ireland joining the EEC. Living somewhere for 5 years as a sort of "purgatory" is a massive inconvenience, to say the least.

[ducknalddon]

It is a problem with the stupid voting system. In most countries you would have separate socialist and centre-left parties but because of the First Past the Post system you can't have more than one left party that overlap too much with each other, because if they did they would split the vote too much. So Labour needs to be a very broad church between people with very differing views. Similarly for the Conservative Party.

We might be about to get that if Labour can't hold itself together over the next few days/weeks. Still have a problem with the voting system though, I've always been in favour of a proportional system although UKIP has made me wonder about that.

[Egg]

I see no leaver has disputed my earlier post from today about Netherlands immigration. So do you admit that some British people that would have been able to live in Europe may not be able to do so in future? And are you happy about that?

I think it's fair enough that you shouldn't be able just to retire to the Netherlands without having put anything into their system. You said you can't move there unless you study or work first. There's your answer. Go and work there for a bit, and do your bit to help the country you want to support you with their public services. So to answer your question directly, yes I am personally comfortable with you not being able to waltz into the Netherlands just to retire.

[radamfi]

I think it's fair enough that you shouldn't be able just to retire to the Netherlands without having put anything into their system. You said you can't move there unless you study or work first. There's your answer. Go and work there for a bit, and do your bit to help the country you want to support you with their public services. So to answer your question directly, yes I am personally comfortable with you not being able to waltz into the Netherlands just to retire.

I've already worked for 20 years while Dutchmen have been able to "waltz" into the UK so I feel I've already done "my bit".

[radamfi]

There may be hope. It looks like Belgium allow Americans to retire as long as they pay their way:

http://unitedstates.diplomatie.belgium. ... ng-belgium

You could move to Baarle-Hertog so you would effectively be in the Netherlands. (Baarle is a geographical curiosity where there are parcels of Belgian land inside the boundaries of the Netherlands).