Bubble?

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workathome
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Bubble?

Post by workathome »

I started reading "Supermoney" and a quote stood out at me:
...major market highs were almost invariably singled when the dinvidend yeild on stocks fell below 3 percent, when the price-earnings ratio rose much above 20 times earnings, and when th aggregate market value of U.S. equities reached 80 percent of our nation's gross domestic product (GDP).
Current yield: 1.95%
Current market cap of listed eqities at % of GDP: 119%
Current P/E: 19.44

We have 2/3, though based on the historic charts and his observations, one could conclude that we've been in a bubble since the 90's.

mds
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Re: Bubble?

Post by mds »

According to this graph, PE of the S&P has mostly oscillated between 5 and 25 for over one hundred years. You can see it deviate up to 45 before the dot com crash and way up to 65 during the mortgage crisis.

http://www.multpl.com/

I'd like to see those other stats, yields and percentage of GDP added on that chart.

BennKar
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Re: Bubble?

Post by BennKar »

While historically the numbers may hold true, I don't think there was ever a time (at least in the US) when you had this much interference by those that "create" the money. I guess I am saying that this time may be different (not that I know this to be true, but we really are going into uncharted territory). For now I am hedging my bets when it comes to my investments - I don't know of a better way to go for now.

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jennypenny
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Re: Bubble?

Post by jennypenny »

I agree with BennKar that there is so much intervention in the markets right now that it's almost impossible to compare different situations.

OTOH, yesterday felt like a Hail Mary to me. The Fed needs a way out, the markets expected them to take a step towards the door, and they passed. Maybe they are just waiting to see the full effects of Obamacare, or maybe their information shows that things are worse than we think. Not sure.

George the original one
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Re: Bubble?

Post by George the original one »

Feds - unemployment is still above 7%, so the conditions for exit that they outlined have not yet been met.

Yeah, most of us believe it's time to exit anyway, but the Feds aren't budging.

almostthere
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Re: Bubble?

Post by almostthere »

I've been reading a lot of Howard Marks lately. One relevant memo was the November 2001 memo entitled, "You can't predict. You can prepare."

http://www.oaktreecapital.com/MemoTree/ ... redict.pdf

I think his thoughts on the credit cycle is especially interesting given our current circumstances.

It also has his great quote on the three stages of a bull market:

"The first when a few forward looking people begin to beleive things will get better,
the second when most investors realize improvement is actually underway, and
the third, when everyone concludes everything will get better forever."

workathome
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Re: Bubble?

Post by workathome »

Thanks for sharing the memo from Marks. I hadn't read anything from him before. I didn't mention it above, but the quote was from the introduction and written by John Bogle.

Here's an interesting recent interview from him:

http://www.gurufocus.com/news/228518/ho ... -my-career

almostthere
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Re: Bubble?

Post by almostthere »

@ workathome. you inspired me to go back and see what Mr. Graham had to say about signs of the end of bull market. He states in the Intelligent Investor:

"Somewhere in the middle of the bull market the first common-stock flotations make their appearance. These are priced not unattractively, and some large profits are made by the buyers of the early issues. As the market rise continues, this brand of financing grows more frequent; the quality of the companies becomes steadily poorer; the prices asked and obtained verge on the exorbitant. One fairly dependable sign of the approaching end of the bull swing is the fact that new common stocks of small and nondescript companies are offered at prices somewhat higher than the current level for many medium sized companies with a long market history."

He also states:

"Nearly all the bull had a number of well defined characteristics in common, such as 1) historically high price level 2) High price / earnings ratios 3) low dividend yields as against bond yields 4) much speculation on margin 5) many offering of new common stock issues of poor quality"

He seems to emphasize number of IPOS and IPOs of lesser quality companies.

A quick google search revealed this:

http://bear.warrington.ufl.edu/ritter/I ... istics.pdf

If anyone knows how to get better data, it might be an interesting gauge of market temperature. Historical and current margin levels info would also be interesting.

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jennypenny
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Re: Bubble?

Post by jennypenny »


workathome
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Re: Bubble?

Post by workathome »

If you go back to 1870, it looks like the P/E ratio is pretty high. If you just look at the market since 1990, it looks like we'd need a big spike before true bubble-terrority is reached. Then you somehow need to factor in stimulus spending.

http://www.multpl.com

"Fairly-valued" seems like a good position to take from 50-year perspective.

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Re: Bubble?

Post by jacob »

@workathome

http://www.multpl.com/shiller-pe/

I think these are the droids you're looking for ...

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jennypenny
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Re: Bubble?

Post by jennypenny »

Chris Martenson had Jim Rickards (Currency Wars) on his podcast today.
http://www.peakprosperity.com/podcast/8 ... ic-history

workathome
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Re: Bubble?

Post by workathome »

jacob wrote:@workathome

http://www.multpl.com/shiller-pe/

I think these are the droids you're looking for ...
Thank you. I wasn't familiar with that metric. Now I want to see that a 5-year CAPE would look like, but can't find one. Here's a recent interview with Shiller

I like this Gurufocus version. It clearly illustrates that one could state "The stock market has only ever been this high before the panic of 1901, before the great depression, during the tech bubble, and before the 2008 crash."

ToFI
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Re: Bubble?

Post by ToFI »

I can afford to time an individual stock but can't afford to time the whole market.
I am wrong on one stock. I am only wrong for a small amount of capital. If I am wrong about the whole thing, I miss everything. I like to buy a basket of the best businesses and hold them as long as possible.

workathome
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Re: Bubble?

Post by workathome »


workathome
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Re: Bubble?

Post by workathome »

Corporate profits as % of GDP are at all-time historical highs. Is this sustainable?

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/graph/?g=cSh

vivacious
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Re: Bubble?

Post by vivacious »

Is "Supermoney" good? What are the views of "Adam Smith?" I haven't read that one.

jacob
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Re: Bubble?

Post by jacob »

@workathome - Are you following Hussman's (hussmanfunds.com) weekly blogs?

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jennypenny
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Re: Bubble?

Post by jennypenny »

jacob wrote:@workathome - Are you following Hussman's (hussmanfunds.com) weekly blogs?
LOL ... I was going to post a link to Hussman's post this week, but I couldn't figure out where. I guess I'll put it here...
http://www.hussman.net/wmc/wmc131028.htm

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GandK
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Re: Bubble?

Post by GandK »

That's a great post, Jenny! I loved it.

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