Satiety and energy crashes on different diet models in specific case

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Stahlmann
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Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:05 pm

Satiety and energy crashes on different diet models in specific case

Post by Stahlmann »

Well...

Most people there should or want to follow high-carb diet (due to price of staples and ability to not own big freezer, etc. and system stuff).

At the moment, I am rather proponent of MC HF LP. I try to emulate LCHF, but carbs are very tempting.

Below I use percentage as energy intake

After many trials of anal fixated calorie counting (ended with hardcore binge eating, going nowhere and having jo-jo effects), I gave up on "you just eat too much" (so you tell me that if my body tells me to eat something I need to resist this urge? what a logic). Of coure it's great tool anyway (7k person intake vs 3k intake will be noticable difference on any model).

I know that fellow engineers/scientist will revolt, but try the following diets (70kg male trying to loose weight "believing in" calories cut so 500kcal deficit based):
1) 1500 kcal -> 70% animal fat, 10% protein, 10% carbs
2) 1500 kcal on WHO 33%/33%/33% (I forgot where they put 40 so I did small simplification) (very clever, after so many reasearch they just assumed 1/3 per macro)
What will you make more hungry?

But these diets (with content of saturated fats over 30%) tend to be not so forgivable in long-term (according to "my research TM"). Especially in the range 40-60% for fats. There you can be contantly hungry and it's easy to gain weight. Especially 40% carbs and 40% fats diets tend to be the killer (you're constantly hungry, have crashes; take a look into fast-food).

I mean there is optimum when you reach 65-80% of fats (an the rest will be divided into for carbs and protein) (according to "my research TM"). Or 65-80% of carbs (according to "my research TM") and it's probaly true with "japanesse and ERE TM experience". But "not in my experience TM"

I do not have courage to go in 65-80% range for fats (societal pressure).

I do not consider high protein diets. I feel bad when I eat it too much. It also costs a lot. Hard to store (system thinking).

My shift to fats resulted form no pleasure with theory of "carbs give you energy". But I open to come back, or to press the button harder with fats.

So I rather use wellbeing-mirror-ruler-scale at the moment (now I see, I'm narcissist :lol: ) in planning (after so many years it rather boils down to product choices to avoid "calories BS") what I eat.

I tried intermittent fasting (on macro advised by WHO; counting calories). There hunger tends to be unsatiable. I mean this hunger during eating window. So we have unpredictable binge eating on IF (no satiety). Energy levels were somewhat OK for the rest of the day.

I don't want to drink coffe/tea as a stimulant or "saturator"

Don't be the smart ass about the fact I used percentage intake. It's probably better than calories on planning meals. Or take it with a grain of salt. I try to eat small/medium portions (to give you calorific content).

Any ideas? There are many fitness folks there. I also want to hear forum's MD finally! :lol:

I go tommorow to the cardiologist, but in terms of diet tips I will be advised to do WHO regimen. Leaflet (with instruction) will have ads of heart drug company anyway :lol: .

I contacted some fitness guy who specializes in "difficult cases" (he supposes blood glucose level problems, really?), but his help would cost me a lot (I was flooded with "cool" lab test names to undergo, pretty pricey and good way to be in "authority position"). He offers me "diet therapy" combined with "natural remedies".

I am going through syllabus for "clinical nutrition". I also look through BB ("my sport" niche) community, but each experts tends to freemium their content. And it's difficult to tell what is fad or not.

I am rather introverted and I easy get distracted in real life. Some RL dialogue with GP:
(after problems with blood pressure)
-You should stop eating high fats products, you should eat "healthy"
-I easily get hungry when I eat oats
- Add penauts
-...[in my head: didn't want to be smeghead, stopped discussing]
Maybe it's connected that I don't know how should I behave with MD. Because when I have problem, I read an article and then go to the MD and a bit shy to say what the problem is or I don't if I can be "demandig", because "of the internet". I'm not so talkative/being able to defend my point IRL either. Also sometimes it's hard to present the problem (like this, I want to be good patient and give whole overview) and avoid Pavlovian response in style of "keyword-prescription for magic pill" (sorry for the rant).

TL;DR
1. Explain me what gives you contant energy flow in your diet (if you know/guess mechanism). I mean good mood, not being dizzy, no energy crashes (after 30 minutes of eating). This has been great problem for me. I haven't solved this isssue for sooo long.
2. If you're on HCLF, tell me your experience. This model has never worked for me.
3. The same is about satiety for HCLF.
4. How do you talk to MD about your problems? Particulary, if you "suspect" something, but the case is faraway from your age/risk group ("You're young, you should't have problems").

Nobody will send me to diabetologist, even in "socialist countries TM" for nothing. And for my age group they offer "preventive methods" (probably more sport) or pills (I don't wanna them, waaaaaaay to young). Of course, I need to go somewhere and pay with time or/and money for that [I see I became a snob/juggins after trying to adapt ERE-generalist mindset :lol: . I need to climb down over ]. And this feud between "big pharma TM" and "renegades Personal Trainers who help those who are lost" kicks in...

Go figure :x (In my language we use this expression to say that we don't know what to do. Is it the same with English?)

"Data":
I think the glycemia is the main issue here. I am open to other possibilities :D.
Exercises help in 2-5h window after. I can and I am somehow injured and I can't do them so regulary. I think that I lost manyyyyyy sessions, because I was sleepy as hell ("Now is the time for a nap", which has never occured).
The worst is that very often I can't sleep during night, but during the day I am very sleepy :angry".
Anyway this problem was apparent even back in HS (loooong ago).
I can work on my sleep.
My hair and skin are in good conditions so I think vitamins aren't the problem.
Not so much "real stress TM" in my life up to this point (I think so).
For n=1 blood glucose was good. I don't have glucometer to make my own "science".

I am close to 80kg (for reasonable height), it's about loosing 5-10kg (if somebody thought I am really big guy (because of my provocative ranting :lol: ).

Notes:
Argh... I haven't written anything long in English for some time (which presents my "orginal" thoughts or feelings, not connected with uni). Sorry for the mess. It is rather memoir for me now, I got my thoughts clearer.

enigmaT120
Posts: 1240
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Location: Falls City, OR

Re: Satiety and energy crashes on different diet models in specific case

Post by enigmaT120 »

Yes. Sorry, but that is the only question that I know the answer to. If I needed to lose some fat I would fast for a couple of days, more if needed.


"Go figure :x (In my language we use this expression to say that we don't know what to do. Is it the same with English?)"

BRUTE
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Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:20 pm

Re: Satiety and energy crashes on different diet models in specific case

Post by BRUTE »

brute isn't in super amazing shape, but he has been on a very strict ketogenic diet for almost 2 years straight now. he's fallen out of ketosis 3 or 4 times. hard to remember. it usually takes 2-3 days to get back in. brute forgets how shitty it feels not to be in ketosis. it is similar to spending 24/7 in a manic sugar rush.

brute's diet is as close to zero carb as possible. for vitamin reasons, he eats a little bit of green vegetables with every meal, mostly spinach. in restaurants or when other places offer free food, brute will sometimes eat salad or vegetable matter, but usually not too much. the only real carb source brute consumes is dark chocolate (85%+), where he can eat an entire bar a day without falling out of ketosis.

experience report:
- there is no hunger. brute has literally not been hungry in almost 2 years. never. at all. brute has gone 8 days without calories and 10 days without solid calories (cream in coffee was only consumption). weird, yes. hunger, no.
- extremely stable mood. in retrospect, brute on carbs feels bipolar.
- sleep much improved.
- in the beginning, drastic fat loss, after 6-8 months plateau.
- brute does IF most days, simply because he's too lazy/cheap to make or pay for breakfast or lunch unless provided. (systems thinking: not eating saves money!)
- brute has done plenty of research, and as far as he's found, there is no link between saturated fat intake and heart disease or other negative health implications. the real link is apparently carbs -> triglycerides and small dense LDL particles -> heart disease.
- it is much easier to go keto than to go low carb - low carb means always hovering in the nebulous zone right before keto kicks in.
- societal pressure? lol.
- percentage intakes are pretty useless. low enough total grams of carb are the most important metric for hunger signal in brute's experience, followed by medium high total grams of protein (too much -> constipation).

brute would say that the key to any diet is finding and turning off the hunger switch. for brute, this means very strict keto. with hunger activated, diets are a short-term thing that cannot work. the body will simply ramp up the hunger signal and it becomes impossible to not binge. on keto (for brute), no such thing as hunger signal, diet becomes possible. there seem other diets that have similar effects for different humans. experimentation may be key. or just doing fucking keto. it works.

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Jean
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Location: Switzterland

Re: Satiety and energy crashes on different diet models in specific case

Post by Jean »

What is the cheapest way you found to achieve ketosis?
What is the maximum amount of carbs you can eat and still be on ketosis?

I had good results with intermitten fasting. Now my body seems to be used to not eating, and even if I eat mostly pasta for a week, I can still get up, and walk 40 km before eating anything, and I still don't feel that hungry.

BRUTE
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Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:20 pm

Re: Satiety and energy crashes on different diet models in specific case

Post by BRUTE »

Jean wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:47 am
What is the cheapest way you found to achieve ketosis?
What is the maximum amount of carbs you can eat and still be on ketosis?
1.not eating. cost: $0/day.
2.depends on genetics, activity level, and more. <20g/day will put almost any human into ketosis, >50-70g will kick most humans out (unless consumed during a marathon or similar).

brute also did rice and beans based IF Warrior Diet for 6 months before starting Keto. high carb IF can definitely work as well. but keto was a whole different level for brute.

slowtraveler
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Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:06 pm

Re: Satiety and energy crashes on different diet models in specific case

Post by slowtraveler »

Try eating a small highly satisfying meal slowly once your fast ends then go do something else. It helps for this to be a social meal in my experience (not dinner out but picnic snack on hike).

I wouldn't say I'm low fat in my diet. I eat whatever I want and fast twice per week for 24 hours. It works as long as I don't binge and note that I eat mostly whole foods or foods I made. My diet is probably mostly homemade bread and tomatoes with store bought olive oil, salt, and avocados then some vegan dessert.

My MD sent me to a nutrition counselor who was gorgeous but not useful in losing weight. Fasting twice per week and eating sensibly the rest of the time is what worked for me. I think that the more flexible and simple something is, the more likely I can fit it into my life for a long period of time or as a permanent habit. I cut 2/7 of all sugar, all junk food, all every bad food at once with one simple change.

If the type of food you ate mattered so much, lap band surgery would not work at all but there is plenty of evidence that it works in some cases.

BRUTE
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Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:20 pm

Re: Satiety and energy crashes on different diet models in specific case

Post by BRUTE »

Felipe wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:51 pm
If the type of food you ate mattered so much, lap band surgery would not work at all but there is plenty of evidence that it works in some cases.
incorrect. if what matters is absolute amount of daily carbs, just eating less in the same proportion is highly likely to lead to an effective low-carb diet.

in fact, it has been argued that all successful low-calorie diets just happen to work because they are really low-carb in absolute terms.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Satiety and energy crashes on different diet models in specific case

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

It also could be argued that it is the diuretic effect of ketosis that is effective. All sorts of mechanisms that are diuretic have the effect of reducing appetite and increasing possibility of loss of weight. The water pills that women sometimes take to reduce hormonal bloating are very similar in formulation to OTC diet pills. Straight-up caffeine ingestion, substituting alcohol calories for food calories, eliminating liquid intake during fast (as for Ramadan), amphetamines, some diuretic medications prescribed for other conditions, such as spironolactone, aerobic exercise, even sunbathing, can have some degree of similar effect. Not too many obese cocaine addicts running around.

Having spent many decades observing the illicit behaviors of affluent, white suburban American females, I would hazard to estimate that a diet/practice that consisted of vodka, diet tonic, aspirin with caffeine, hour on the exercise bike wearing cellulite-reduction shorts made out of plastic, coffee, kombucha, chocolate chip cookies, coffee and aspirin, half hour in tanning booth, one slice Whole Foods pizza...innumerable variations on theme...although higher than suggested total carb intake for ketosis would have similar overall diuretic effect on dampening appetite towards weight loss.

It might be interesting to do an experiment with a diet that increased fat intake for satiety, kept carbohydrates moderate (rather than low), but also included some other diuretic mechanisms.

Smashter
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Re: Satiety and energy crashes on different diet models in specific case

Post by Smashter »

BRUTE wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:28 am
<20g/day will put almost any human into ketosis, >50-70g will kick most humans out (unless consumed during a marathon or similar).
Slightly off topic, but does Brute draw blood and monitor his BHB levels with something like this? http://www.quikshipmedical.com/precisio ... m-99837-20

Or does Brute just "know" when he's in ketosis? Or not care? One of the problems I had with my 6 week ketosis experiment was that I had an obsessive desire to check my levels to be sure I was doing it right. Those strips are expensive!

BRUTE
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Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:20 pm

Re: Satiety and energy crashes on different diet models in specific case

Post by BRUTE »

brute did the strips for a few weeks as well, but besides being very expensive, they also didn't tell brute much. brute can tell when he's in vs. out of ketosis, and doesn't care much for the BHB levels. they are not necessary to do keto.

slowtraveler
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Re: Satiety and energy crashes on different diet models in specific case

Post by slowtraveler »

@Brute
Isn't your diet simply the hard part of Atkins mixed with the warrior diet style of daily intermittent fasting?
I can't imagine gaining weight in this style would be easy. It's also very rigid and hard to follow. The best diet is the one you can follow for a long period of time and works for you.

Since going vegan, my weight loss has increased even though I eat way more carbs than before.

Hikers often bring straight olive oil on distance hikes for the calories. A calorie is a calorie of energy and burning it will increase the temperature of 1mL of water by 1 degree kelvin. Calories are made to be converted to fat and sugar depending on the body's needs. The oil gets converted to blood glucose to be used by the muscles in the preceding scenario but thermodynamics still apply.

When fasting, various hormones change in concentration due to the natural fasting-feasting cycle and I believe this is what has caused most of both of our fat loss-our fasting (the fact that we don't eat for extended periods of time as a habit) rather than our diet. If you have monk like discipline, eating once a day would likely be easier with a high fat diet like the one Brute follows.

Einstein said to make things as simple as possible and no simpler. I recommend fasting full heartedly but completely giving up carbs is too difficult in most situations so why bother when it's not actually required?

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