Can one control one's thoughts?

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ThisDinosaur
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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by ThisDinosaur »

@jennypenny, I think we're still on topic. OP sky asked if its possible to control your stream of thoughts. I'm curious if others can do this because I can't. I've found very functional ways to work around it, but I get the sense there's a better way.

The two main loops for me are 1) unimportant/non-urgent tasks winning my attention over important/urgent ones and 2) obsessing over how to avoid losing all my money or running out when I'm too old to make more. Riggerjack is probably right that my priorities are bass ackwards.

@Jacob, you've written about how the goal has to be the first and last thing you think about each day. That one was easy for me. Did you have to use biofeedback and mindset-changing techniques to limit obsessive thoughts? I get the sense you achieved ERE almost by accident, whereas I have been applying brute force to the FI problem since before I knew it was a thing.

BRUTE
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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by BRUTE »

brute has a similar thing with code. he doesn't consciously "think" about how it works, it's a bit like feeling legos, and knowing how they fit together or why they won't.

maybe these types of intuitions develop in any field where enough time is spent. brute also remembers having "spidey sense" for other motorists when he was riding motorcycles more aggressively, to the point where he could almost pre-cog bad driving behavior and evade. or simply "know" that no car was in his dead spot, because his mind had kept a sort of subconscious map of surrounding traffic. of course it can become dangerous to rely on these intuitions in traffic.

this feels less like control of thought, though. closer to being molded into a certain way of thinking by the environment.

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jennypenny
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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by jennypenny »

@ThisDinosaur -- Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant a discussion of specific black swan fears might warrant its own thread.

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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by jacob »

@TD - No and no. For my part, I consider biofeedback to be an amusing diversion... practiced at boring events like social gatherings, meetings, or lectures. If you ever catch me staring idly at my hand ...

I would actually prefer to have obsessive thoughts (the opposite of boredom). I only seek to change how I think and what I think about... which would mostly be an accurate understanding of reality---because that's what I'm interested in. Think of it as trying to install clean-running software in the brain. "Obsessive thought of the wrong kind" strikes me as a meme-infection of some kind. These can be deleted [for a while] but they'll pop up again. Permanent deletion comes about by finding a solution... being mainly a problem-solving engine.

I gather that an alternative strategy is to try to think more positively ... but I don't know how that would work. Positive/negative seems to be more of a sentiment thing which is really orthogonal to what I'm seeking. To me, optimism or pessimism would be detrimental form of bias. For example, a pessimist would be less likely to take chances even though the probability of success is hig[er than they believe]. Conversely, an optimist is more likely to be blind[er]/underresponsive to things that could go wrong and thus more likely to fail [spectacularly]. You could also view this bias in terms of feedback bias in control theory. It's an interesting way to look at the system. If problem-solving is not an interest, I suppose one could optimize for bias. Anyway ...

My point with my examples was that one's mind can be controlled and changed deliberately, including mind-body (or at least nervous system) connections. That possessing an "inner voice" that never shuts up is not a given even if its the default installation.

Also see the link I posted about autotelic personalities.
No one is fully autotelic, since we all have to do things even if we don’t enjoy them, either out of a sense of duty or necessity. But there is a gradation, ranging from individuals who almost never feel that what they do is worth doing for its own sake, to others who feel that most anything they do is fun and valuable in its own right. It is to these latter individuals the term autotelic personality applies.
and
Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi describes people who are “autotelic as those who need few material possessions and little entertainment, comfort, power, or fame because so much of what he or she does is already rewarding. Because such persons experience flow in work, in family life, when interacting with people, when eating, even when alone with nothing to do, they are less dependent on the external rewards that keep others motivated to go on with a life composed of routines. They are more autonomous and independent because they cannot be as easily manipulated with threats or rewards from the outside. At the same time, they are more involved with everything around them because they are fully immersed in the current of life.”
This almost describes me to a T---except I wouldn't go so far as to describe it as flow. Unless flow is a matter of degree ... Also as an intellectual I'm not as much involved with everything around me as I am with everything within me.

In fact, the main reason I've quit my jobs and hobbies was that they were no longer interesting to me. It's mental torture to be forced or force myself to be creative about anything I've lost interest in. It just doesn't happen. It would probably be easier to keep working in a field where one can survive on routine and process but I've never really held a real job in such kinds of work (beyond part time and summer jobs), not counting the schooling system which was mostly incredibly boring/unstimulating.

I don't know if one can change oneself into this .. or into an optimistic person (like OP) per se. This seems like major renovation to me. However, natural tendencies can definitely be tuned and controlled. Annoying mental issues can be removed. Creating new ones/replacements is much harder.

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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by IlliniDave »

Riggerjack wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:11 am
You make money too important. If you lost all the money in all your accounts, a result so horrible, it exceeds any the past has brought; what would happen?

You would be where you are now, making more.

You are living your worst case scenario. Not so bad, is it?

If it is that bad, you have more important things to worry about than money.
+1. The future is unknown and the possibilities are endless. I don't think it is reasonable to believe one can hedge the entire universe of possible outcomes. I think it's a very long stretch from set-and-forget" to culpable ignorance, and to be able to let go of his money in his thoughts most of the time and pay attention to life is empowering to a person.

Smashter
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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by Smashter »

jacob wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:20 am

At some point I realize that abstract thinking and technical concepts is better handled in English than in Danish and I switched the language of my internal dialogue. I think entirely in English now.
I only speak one language, so this is fascinating to me. Was it hard to make the switch? Do you dream in both languages?

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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by jacob »

@Smashter - Not really. Once you get past the point of not thinking about the foreign language as a translation of your own, that is, not trying to mentally translate what you're going to say before you say it, you're good to go. I'd estimate that my English vocabulary is bigger than my Danish. I dream in whatever I think in. Sometimes I dream in equations.

enigmaT120
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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by enigmaT120 »

I've never felt like I thought in any language. When I speak English, I translate my thoughts (sometimes imperfectly!) into English. When I speak Spanish, it's the same procedure, but what I say is more limited due to my smaller vocabulary. When I can't think of the word I want I always want to use ASL, which doesn't work.

sl-owl-orris
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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by sl-owl-orris »

jacob wrote:
Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:03 pm
@Smashter - Not really. Once you get past the point of not thinking about the foreign language as a translation of your own, that is, not trying to mentally translate what you're going to say before you say it, you're good to go. I'd estimate that my English vocabulary is bigger than my Danish. I dream in whatever I think it. Sometimes I dream in equations.
This is a very interesting concept. I used to think that I didn't think in words, but rather in images, ideas, concepts, etc. It's certainly true that I don't seem to think in full sentences with syntax, punctuation etc, but now I'm more inclined to accept the idea that language plays a role in thinking. Different languages develop in order to describe the world they exist in, so quite naturally there will be concepts in one language, which are difficult (impossible) to translate to another language. The language we use influences the way we think, for example how we approach the idea of saving money.

https://www.ted.com/talks/keith_chen_co ... save_money

An interesting example, there is an ethnic group called Kashubians (Kaszubi) and he speaks their language. Those people are thought to be very brusque and stubborn. Their language doesn't have a word for 'sorry'. They do have an expression meaning 'forgive me', but it's only used in very grave circumstances. Basically, they don't apologise for little things in life. The question is, did they lose the expression to say 'I'm sorry' because it wasn't used, or did they not develop it because of the way they carry themselves?

Another example. There are many words in Polish, which basically mean the same thing - to cheat or steal in order to gain something. On the top of my head: załatwić, zachachmęcić, skołować, skombinować. You may be surprised to know, that these words have positive connotations as opposed to words such as kraść (to steal) or oszukiwać (to cheat), which are unambiguously negative.

To understand this phenomenon, you need to look at the Polish history - living under Russian, Prussian and Austrian domination for 123 years, to gain sovereignty for 2 decades and then the WWII and German occupation, then Soviet rule and the Communism etc. In short, for centuries the majority of Polish people lived in poverty and stealing and cheating was a matter of survival. If you stole, it was from the oppressor, from the system, not from a particular person and so it wasn't seen as morally wrong. On the other hand, you and your family were better off if you did something illegal for your advantage. To be honest, it was the whistle-blowers who were seen as the worst scum possible while those who cheated and bribed their way up top were praiseworthy.

The situation is different now, but these words are still in use and this sort of mentality is still present. My grandparents say, "He who doesn't cheat, doesn't eat" (Kto nie kombinuje, ten nie je). No wonder many Polish people apply the same values they grew up with when then go abroad, but they usually adapt quickly and change their ways when they see it's not socially acceptable to live like that. Needless to say, I feel much better living in a western country, where the rules are clear and there is no social pressure to cheat or to enable others to cheat.

BRUTE
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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by BRUTE »


FBeyer
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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by FBeyer »

sl-owl-orris wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:49 am
This is a very interesting concept.
I think this is very obvious to anyone who has had to speak a second language for prolonged periods of time. I mainly think in English too these days, oddly enough. A colleague of mine is a very talented word smith, but when he lived in The States for a couple of months, his English wasn't as good as his native tongue so he told me how he resorted to being a practical joker instead of a linguistic joker; and it didn't even strike him until he came home that he'd changed while he was there.

If you're tickled by the idea of changing your thought patterns as you change your language, the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is a key part of the Sci-Fi movie Arrival.

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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by sl-owl-orris »

@Brute

Thanks, I knew there must be science behind it. It's great to be in this place where so many people are well-read and if you touch upon a subject, chances are there is someone here who knows more about it.

On the other hand, it's funny when you try to explain to monolinguals that a phrase doesn't translate well into another language. They don't seem to grasp it. Example, movie title Die Hard. Someone told me that if there is a word for die and for hard, the title can be translated no problem :lol: :lol: :lol:

@FBeyer

Yes, I enjoyed watching Arrival tremendously, just as I loved reading Ted Chiang's short story before then.

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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by jacob »

Ancient Greek famously does not have a word for blue, so what do you call the color of the sea? Wine-dark ... colors were classified by brightness rather than hues. Not all languages contain the same number of colors. Strangely, almost all languages contain the same colors to a degree.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguisti ... ing_debate
Berlin and Kay wrote: [*] All languages contain terms for black and white.
[*] If a language contains three terms, then it contains a term for red.
[*] If a language contains four terms, then it contains a term for either green or yellow (but not both).
[*] If a language contains five terms, then it contains terms for both green and yellow.
[*] If a language contains six terms, then it contains a term for blue.
[*] If a language contains seven terms, then it contains a term for brown.
[*] If a language contains eight or more terms, then it contains terms for purple, pink, orange or gray.
Danish does not contain a specific word for "please"---the sentiment must be inferred from the context and other words. It does have an easy solution, which is better than "one", for the clumsy use of "he or she" in politically correct English---hence one is not reminded of gender everytime one uses a pronoun. Imagine what that does to one's thinking? It's actually a "real" effect ... languages that have a neutral pronoun have more women in the workforce than languages that don't.

On top of my head I know the following words in Danish for different kinds of rain: slagregn, stovregn, finregn, silende regn, styrtregn. (I'm probably forgetting several.) These terms only refer to the size of the raindrops! I'm not including whether it's part of a thunderstorm, a brief shower, etc. or more exotic stuff like acid rain or sleet. The temperature of the raindrops is also a thing. In English, I only know "rain" or "rain mist" when it comes to describing how it's raining. I can of course say "the rain is coming down hard" ... but I don't have a word for it.

You can also run this is reverse. Newspeak is a famous fictional (coming to you in a reality near you right now?) example of trying to cripple the language to prevent people from being able to think certain thoughts or more precisely to eliminate the capability of having nuanced thoughts. I bet most people only have an inchoate command of the word inchoate, including me.

Also consider even things like numbers ... which we should all agree on, right? But take a step back ... when you play cards and see the "eight of spades" .. do you actually count out all 8 spades .. or do you just identify the pattern those spades are arranged in? I bet you just see the pattern!

More interestingly, there are substantial differences in the structure between Eastern and Western thinking:
See http://earlyretirementextreme.com/do-i- ... o-you.html ... whereas Westerners tend to think in terms of nouns (identifying things and individuals) whereas Easterns tend to think in terms of verbs (identifying relations and connections). Due to my focus on systems, I think very much in terms of connections and couplings (or the underlying structure) and I often find myself struggling explaining complex systems to Western minds who are used to thinking in terms of linear steps or individual items which is often dominated by a process- or goal-oriented mindset than a holistic one. Except when it comes to permaculture people and others who are pre-trained in complex systems thinking. Then it's remarkably much easier to explain my thoughts.

See https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn ... fferently/
Psychologists watching American and Japanese families playing with toys have also noted this difference. “An American mother will say: 'Look Billy, a truck. It’s shiny and has wheels.’ The focus is on the object,” explains Nisbett. By contrast, Japanese mothers stress context saying things like, “I push the truck to you and you push it to me. When you throw it at the wall, the wall says 'ouch'.”
And if you really want your mind blown, Chinese doesn't have a future/time tense. In other words, there's no language distinction between the present and the future. I don't speak Chinese, but it's my understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong) that "I invest savings" doesn't specify whether it's happening now or whether it's the English equivalent of "I will invest my savings in the future". There's no time-frame in the verbs. And recall verbs are the defining priority of the thought. This tends to result in better future-oriented decisions because they are made in the present rather than being pushed into the future. Which means .. while a Western mind may think of the concept as taking "savings" and turning them into "investments" at some theoretical time that is not now... the Estern mind may think of the concept as "being a saver". That's very different.

In particular, certain decisions are better made in certain languages. It's quite unfortunate that many Americans really only speak one language. It inherently makes it harder to see different perspectives.

George the original one
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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by George the original one »

jacob wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:25 pm
On top of my head I know the following words in Danish for different kinds of rain: slagregn, stovregn, finregn, silende regn, styrtregn. (I'm probably forgetting several.) These terms only refer to the size of the raindrops! I'm not including whether it's part of a thunderstorm, a brief shower, etc. or more exotic stuff like acid rain or sleet. The temperature of the raindrops is also a thing. In English, I only know "rain" or "rain mist" when it comes to describing how it's raining. I can of course say "the rain is coming down hard" ... but I don't have a word for it.
We'll have to increase your range of English so you can properly visit Oregon & Washington ;) : mist, raindrops, sprinkle, drizzle, shower, rain, cloudburst, downpour, parting of the heavens, inundation, deluge, pineapple express

sky
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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by sky »

Here is an example of a situation where one might want to control or change one's thoughts:

It was a long night at the meeting, with heated debate between the two sides. Our protagonist wonders if his argument was clear enough and if he convinced enough members of the board to influence the final vote. He named the board members one by one, guessing as to which would be in favor, or which against. He worked through the logic of his presentation again and was reminded about being surprised at the statement of someone who he had thought was an ally, is she on the other side? There is likely more information than is being released, information that might show who the secret force is behind the initiative. Who could it be and what is their real motiviation? The issue at hand is complex, but to make it even more complex, the request may have been made as a smokescreen to get an approval that would be used to leapfrog to another, more important approval. But which one? An idea flashed through his mind, "I must write this down on my list of things to speak about, before I forget!"

Our protagonist looks over at the alarm clock. "3 a.m., I need to get some sleep, but I can't stop thinking about the meeting!"

BRUTE
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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by BRUTE »

jacob wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:25 pm
And if you really want your mind blown, Chinese doesn't have a future/time tense. In other words, there's no language distinction between the present and the future.
it's not impossible to denote the past/future of events, but it's not part of the grammar. equivalent to "brute invest money next year" or "brute invest money last year". besides tenses, there are also no verb conjugations (brute go, jacob go, all humans go, nobody go).

there are various features English does not have: classifiers to denote the name of a set of items, similar to a "pair of jeans" or "heap of sand" in English. all sets of nouns have such words, often derived from their shape or use (food, flat items like plates or bread, cups).

brute is also fascinated by particles, small words often used at the end of sentences that change the meaning of the sentence, a bit like "isn't it" in English. these exist to denote a true/false question, various levels of politeness, the expectation of the truthfulness of the statement (~="isn't that right?"), changing how relative/temporary a judgement call is, and many more.

sl-owl-orris
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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by sl-owl-orris »

@Brute @Jacob

Guys, thanks for your insights! This is really interesting for me and I will definitely look more into this subject. Fascinating stuff.

Another observation of mine - small-talk doesn't exist in Polish. If someone asks a Polish person "How are you?", you'll likely hear something along the lines, "I'm having a really bad day. I woke up with a horrible headache and then my dog got sick so I had to take hi to the vet. But because of that, I was late for work and my boss got mad and..." And so on. Polish people will just tell you the truth. If you ask a question, they assume, you are genuinely interested in the answer. Also, they tend to focus on negatives when talking with others, as it's considered bad manners to boast about good things in your life. If a Polish person would say something like, "I've never been better! I just got my blood results back and they are all excellent so I'm very happy about that!", other Polish people would think it strange, and get annoyed. You are not supposed to show that you're great and everything is working out for you!

On the other hand, I get quite uncomfortable when people in the UK are trying to be friendly and do the small-talk with me. Probably because it seems unnatural and I need focus on saying specific things they expect me to say and at the same time remember that they actually don't really care for the answers. Even more difficult if you don't lead a conventional life and any truthful answer can be highly controversial.

@sky

That's indeed a great example, where it would be very useful to be able to control one's thoughts. On the other hand, I had plenty of situations, where I had a problem I couldn't stop thinking about, and despite my efforts, my thoughts came back to the problem involuntarily. However, I would come up with solutions for example when trying to fall asleep or while taking the shower. It's not good when your thoughts deprive you of sleep or make you anxious, so it's good to have some sort of mechanism to switch that off, but at the same time, sometimes you need to let your brain mull over things to come up with solutions. I believe this was discussed before on these forums in more detail and with science to back it up.

Smashter
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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by Smashter »

sl-owl-orris wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:49 am
You need to look at the Polish history - living under Russian, Prussian and Austrian domination for 123 years, to gain sovereignty for 2 decades and then the WWII and German occupation, then Soviet rule and the Communism etc. In short, for centuries the majority of Polish people lived in poverty
A small price to pay to eliminate small talk :D

BRUTE
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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by BRUTE »

sl-owl-orris wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 9:51 am
On the other hand, I had plenty of situations, where I had a problem I couldn't stop thinking about, and despite my efforts, my thoughts came back to the problem involuntarily. However, I would come up with solutions for example when trying to fall asleep or while taking the shower. It's not good when your thoughts deprive you of sleep or make you anxious, so it's good to have some sort of mechanism to switch that off, but at the same time, sometimes you need to let your brain mull over things to come up with solutions. I believe this was discussed before on these forums in more detail and with science to back it up.
likely an issue with misaligned circadian timing of various organs. the "racing mind at night" simply means the brain doesn't know it's supposed to be sleeping. light management helps.

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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by dirt »

sl-owl-orris wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 7:49 am
An interesting example, there is an ethnic group called Kashubians (Kaszubi) and he speaks their language. Those people are thought to be very brusque and stubborn. Their language doesn't have a word for 'sorry'. They do have an expression meaning 'forgive me', but it's only used in very grave circumstances. Basically, they don't apologise for little things in life. The question is, did they lose the expression to say 'I'm sorry' because it wasn't used, or did they not develop it because of the way they carry themselves?
If you keep looking into this question and reading Whorf, you find people constantly arguing about "strong" or "weak" Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. The "strong" version says that language fully determines thought, whereas the "weak" only implies an influence. From what I have read, I don't understand why anyone thinks that Whorf ever meant to imply a deterministic, or even linear causality from language to thought. It seems clear to me that he had a systems understanding of the relationship between language, thought, and culture, just as Jacob has explained. Here he makes a generalized answer to your question while explaining the systems thinking:
How does such a network of language, culture, and behavior come about historically? Which was first: the language patterns or the cultural norms? In main they have grown up together, constantly influencing each other. But in this partnership the nature of the language is the factor that limits free plasticity and rigidifies channels of development in the more autocratic way. This is so because a language is a system, not just an assemblage of norms. Large systematic outlines can change to something really new only very slowly, while many other cultural innovations are made with comparative quickness. Language thus represents the mass mind; it is affected by inventions and innovations, but affected little and slowly, whereas to inventors and innovators it legislates with the decree immediate.

Whorf in "Language, Thought and Reality", page 156

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