Can one control one's thoughts?

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sky
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Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by sky »

In the interest of maximizing mental well being, can one guide or control the constant stream of thoughts in one's mind?

What are useful techniques to prefer positive, beneficial thoughts and minimize fear, anguish, worry or other types of negative thoughts?

BRUTE
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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by BRUTE »

no

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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by jacob »

yes

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by ThisDinosaur »

I can't. I got my hands on some Ritalin years ago and it sometimes made me more productive, but just as often made my distractions multiply. Mindfulness meditation results have been inconsistent for me too. I've built systems incorporating my brain's flightiness into my life. There's a productivity method called the Pomodoro technique, that basically means you commit a short set of time to working on a task, and schedule a long break afterwards. The alternative is beating your head against the wall trying to read/study something for hours only to have to reread sentences and retain nothing. Turns out there is some education research showing this is an effective learning method. Spaced repetition= Short bouts of study, followed by a long break and quizzing yourself later to see what you still have to review.

There are forumites who've done Vipassana meditation retreats. I'm curious if it helped them with this sort of thing.

Riggerjack
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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by Riggerjack »

Yes.

Not an unqualified yes. I control what I think about, and more directly, what I don't, by having preset defaults to change to. Subjects both interesting, and worth putting more time and energy into.

If I find I need a change of train of thought, I have a prebuilt change to go to.

I don't understand how this is difficult or different from other people, but nobody seems to believe you can't think of a pink elephant...

No idea what's going on at the subconscious level, though.

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GandK
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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by GandK »

Unfortunately, it's easy to control and direct my thoughts when I'm not under stress (when doing so is not as necessary). But like willpower, the more I actually need it, the less available it seems to be.

The one helpful thing I've learned on this topic is that controlling my thoughts/focus is possible as long as I'm deliberately replacing them with something that gives me an equivalent or better neurochemical reaction. In other words, I can't just say to myself, "stop overanalyzing my investment strategy," I have to choose another subject to focus on instead, and it needs to be a subject or thought pattern that's at least as engaging as the one I'm trying to dislodge. I won't need the new one forever, just during the time I'm trying to get rid of the unhelpful one. But I can't just stop thinking X. It leaves a hole that's just as unhelpful and distracting as the original subject.

Is it possible that "positive thoughts" as such are not giving you enough of an emotional payoff? You may need to be more specific with them. Most people I know can give you a very detailed list that's a mile long of everything that's wrong with their life, but if you ask them what's right about their life, they're nowhere near as specific. If they can answer at all.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by ThisDinosaur »

Its not useful to spend lots of time thinking about the good things in your life. You focus effort where the problems are so you can change them. Its only maladaptive if you are focusing on things you can't control. Ask yourself "can I do anything about this?" If yes, do it. If no, don't waste energy on being anxious. If yes-but-later, make a to-do list and deal with it when you can.

@GandK "Overanalyzing my investment strategy" is a hard one. There are so many unknowns that can sink your plans if you invest "wrong." What can you do about it? At any given time you *could* be reading about how to keep your wealth safe. Which would make it hard to enjoy any free time. I struggle with that one.

FBeyer
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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by FBeyer »

sky wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:34 am
...can one guide... the constant stream of thoughts in one's mind?
Yes.
sky wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:34 am
...can one ...control the constant stream of thoughts in one's mind?
No.


This is the essence of Mindfullness meditation. It is the basis of cognitive psychology. You cannot stop the constant barrage of shit entering your brain, but you train how you react to that barrage.

Some of the training is purely mental, some of it is physical. Learning to train your thoughts is very much like physical exercise. You start out weak as fuck and then you fail about one million times but without noticing it, you've grown stronger.

The first step is to learn to recognize when something starts to spiral out of control and then practice redirecting those thoughts. Generally you can't BLOCK negative thoughts with willpower, so you'll have to learn to Bruce-Lee-dodge them instead. Once you get to know your own inner thought patterns you can mentally tell the difference when you're trying to power through shit in your head and when you dodge it instead.

People with a depression are often unable to stop the negative cascade which is why everyday failures (like burning some food) can trigger a chain reaction of self-loathing. Everyone exhibits this behaviour to some extent which is why the training to cure depression is very much the same as training a non-pathological person how to redirect their thoughts. The depressed person just needs chemical help to actually get started with any kind of agency at all.

It is very important that one does not mix up the idea of motivation with the ability to control one's own thoughts. You'll tend to do whatever you are most MOTIVATED to do, which is whatever activity releases the most dopamine for the least amount of effort (like incessant smart-phone swiping). Unless you are a heroine addicts, idiotic electronics-related tasks are probably stealing your attention because that is what your reptile brain is most motivated to do.

That has nothing to do with controlling your thoughts (well, they are actually related but I digress).

Meditation helps you recognize particular thought patterns and teaches you how to dodge the bad patterns. Habits help you with the activities you'd rather do. Meditation can help you recognize when you are about to stray from a new habit you're trying to form.

George the original one
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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by George the original one »

ThisDinosaur wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:55 pm
Ask yourself "can I do anything about this?" If yes, do it. If no, don't waste energy on being anxious. If yes-but-later, make a to-do list and deal with it when you can.
If I followed that to the letter, then the to-do list becomes overwhelming. You need another category, "Yes, but its not worth my time" to avoid filling up the to-do list. And probably something to obsolete things that stay on the to-do list too long.

wolf
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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by wolf »

Mindful meditation practice each evening for about 30 minutes works fine for me. Although most of the time I only "watch" my thoughts how they apear and leave. Due to that I have a better awareness of my thinking.

Riggerjack
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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by Riggerjack »

Its not useful to spend lots of time thinking about the good things in your life. You focus effort where the problems are so you can change them. Its only maladaptive if you are focusing on things you can't control.
Yes and no. Positive reinforcement also works, and is at times, the better tool.

Everything is relative, and when I am facing a difficult situation, it helps to compare it to a tougher situation i have already pushed past. Failing that, a tough situation already faced by someone else. Example:

I had knee surgery. During recovery, when I had to hobble about, gracelessly, and painfully, the temptation to mentally whine about pain and inconvenience was always there.

So, when I stumbled, and my mind went down that path, I would transfer to a difficult and involved retirement project I have in mind. It's always there when I need to make a change. If I stubbled and had intense pain, I compared it to other times of intense pain, and cataloged the ways this was better.

The damage was done, this is just the temporary pain until it is healed.

Previous pains were often not self-induced, this was. I had control over this pain. I created the situation. I control the outcome.

This pain is here to inform me that there is damage to the knee. I knew that. I can disregard the signal now. And try not to trigger that signal in the future. Again, I have control.

I hope that helps.

IlliniDave
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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by IlliniDave »

No, not entirely, but with effort you can maintain focus through the noise.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by ThisDinosaur »

@FBeyer, I like the Bruce-lee-dodge imagery. It rings true. But mindfulness hasn't worked for me. I'm probably just too impatient for results.

@George, totally agree. But the topic is about worrying about stuff. At night, I put stuff on the list so I can worry about it tomorrow instead of when I'm busy/trying to sleep/whatever. If its not important when I get back to the list, it gets deleted.

@Riggerjack, optimists and Buddhists have the same problem (from my perspective.) If they are doing their thing right, they don't address looming issues. Pessimists are at least over-prepared.

Riggerjack
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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by Riggerjack »

Another way to put it is optimists and Buddhists don't allow their issues to loom.

Personally, I have issues I have no intention of addressing. I'm not a practicing Buddhist, but many people have confused me with an optimist.

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jennypenny
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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by jennypenny »

Yes, of course you can. If people couldn't learn to corral their thoughts there'd be no point in anyone ever going to rehab or CBT.

-- Put the wizard in a box. Anytime you have a thought that you know is self-destructive, shove it into a mental box. Allow yourself a set time each week to open the box and examine what's in there but ignore it the rest of the time. This will help you learn to to separate yourself from your more destructive/negative tendencies.

-- Self-hypnosis is good for settling an overactive mind or preemptively calming it before a stressful situation. I originally learned it for pain management but it's been helpful in other ways.

-- Learn that most thoughts are just noise and best ignored. Think of them as crows on a fence or old biddies endlessly commenting on your day. TMI ... I think of Joel, Crow, et al.

-- If you've never been in a twelve-step or rehab situation, you might not realize that everyone has some really fucked up thoughts sometimes. EVERYONE. And not just when they're intoxicated or strung out. If you have a thought that disturbs you, just think 'wow, that's a good one' and laugh it off. You don't have to 'deal' with every thought that pops into your head.

FBeyer
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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by FBeyer »

ThisDinosaur wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:14 pm
@FBeyer, I like the Bruce-lee-dodge imagery. It rings true. But mindfulness hasn't worked for me. I'm probably just too impatient for results.
... optimists and Buddhists have the same problem (from my perspective.) If they are doing their thing right, they don't address looming issues. Pessimists are at least over-prepared.
Well, the worse you are in regards to spiralling negative thinking, the more you'll need to practise. Remember that mindful meditation is specifically NOT about judgment. You're not evaluating whether you feel good or you feel bad. You're not practising a polyanna mindset, you are practicing the ability to deconstruct your thoughts and your surroundings so that you can appraise them exactly as they are.

In fact, the ridiculous optimism/happiness is one of the most fragile mindsets you can build. If you try to set yourself up for constant happiness you will have so isolate yourself from the rest of the miserable world to such a degree that your happiness becomes a prison.

The Buddhists do not suffer from the problem of not adressing looming issues. Buddhism distinguishes sharply between detachment due to weakness and detachment due to strength. It is easy to pick a philosophy like Stoicism, Buddhism, or nihilism and then hide yourself from the shit in the world by cherry picking arguments from the philosophy and holding them up as a shield.

Detachment through stength is one of the most powerful ideas in buddhism. Do not mistake it for weakness. The concept is phrased as: Walk softly, but carry a big stick.

ThisDinosaur
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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by ThisDinosaur »

@Riggerjack,
Instead of "looming issues," substitute "avoidable problems."
Not sure if I'm seen as either optimist or pessimist. But I'm often dismissive of problems with no clear solution. My wife busts my balls about this one time I said something like, "it will either get better or it won't. And if it's really bad, you'll die from it."
It got better.


@FBeyer,
How would you summarize this meditation practice for an impatient person? My understanding is that its mainly to focus on breathing, and nonjudgementally notice and dismiss intrusive thoughts about anything else. Yes? What's the next most important module to add to that?

Also, talk more about detachment through strength vs. weakness. Not sure what that means.

FBeyer
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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by FBeyer »

ThisDinosaur wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:19 am
...
@FBeyer,
How would you summarize this meditation practice for an impatient person? My understanding is that its mainly to focus on breathing, and nonjudgementally notice and dismiss intrusive thoughts about anything else. Yes? What's the next most important module to add to that?
I'll try an analogy: Weightlifting.

- You load up a barbell with a lot of weights. When you can lift that you add more weight.
- Yes? Okay so, what is the next module to add to that?
- Well, more weight!

What is it you need to add? If you're getting better and better at managing destructive thoughts, what else do you need? Honestly? When you rid your brain of shit, all that is left is good and productive stuff. Don't you think that is a worthwhile goal in itself? Do you think you'll get to that level of mental hygiene in a few short years?

Why don't you reflect on your impatience first? Why are you in such a hurry?

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GandK
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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by GandK »

ThisDinosaur wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:55 pm
Its not useful to spend lots of time thinking about the good things in your life.
I disagree. It's extremely useful for mood management and for life perspective. Life is not a series of problems to be solved, and for many of us, problem solving does not inherently create joy. It is definitely possible to overfocus on problems and miss the good things because of it.
ThisDinosaur wrote:
Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:55 pm
@GandK "Overanalyzing my investment strategy" is a hard one. There are so many unknowns that can sink your plans if you invest "wrong." What can you do about it? At any given time you *could* be reading about how to keep your wealth safe. Which would make it hard to enjoy any free time. I struggle with that one.
Me too. I have a strategy that I'm confident in, but I still wonder if there's something better out there. Moreover, I have an unhealthy fear of black swans. Still not sure how to rein that in, other than trying to change focus.

IlliniDave
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Re: Can one control one's thoughts?

Post by IlliniDave »

ThisDinosaur wrote:
Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:19 am
@FBeyer,
How would you summarize this meditation practice for an impatient person? My understanding is that its mainly to focus on breathing, and nonjudgementally notice and dismiss intrusive thoughts about anything else. Yes? What's the next most important module to add to that?

Also, talk more about detachment through strength vs. weakness. Not sure what that means.
Not FBeyer and didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express.

The idea is to first notice there is a 'you' who is observing the typically frenetic stream of thought your mind constantly pumps out. Then the next step is to prevent the frenetic stream of thought from dragging the 'you' all over the place. The two big "problems" are when the stream of thought incessantly dredges up painful memories from the past and/or creates an imaginary future with lots to fear. The goal is to cultivate the ability to bring your full awareness and attention to the present (aka mindfulness), the here and now. So even dwelling on happy past memories or envisioning a wonderful future work against that.

Meditation is a widely used technique to foster mindfulness, and the Zen slant is to "follow the breath", others use chanting, but there are techniques other than meditation: archery and calligraphy, for example, are among the traditional pursuits. Probably anything that requires discipline to master could be used as a vehicle to mindfulness, and arguably any one that has truly mastered such a pursuit has mastered mindfulness as well.

I get a lot of mileage out of just pausing every now and then, especially when I feel impatient or harried, and directing my awareness to my senses, and silently naming where I am, what I see, what I hear, what I smell, etc. It sounds stupid and New-Agey, but it works for me.

I find the pesky thinking part of my brain to be somewhat like the weather--there's always something going on and more often than not it does not completely support my immediate activities. So like the weather, I acknowledge it, accommodate it as best I can, then get about my business.

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