Vegetarianism

[thrifty++]

I eat a diet that is mainly plant based with a fair amount of lean meat.

However I also find meat somewhat disgusting and I eat it because I have force-fed myself it for some time. The reasons I do so are to ensure sufficient minerals and vitamins as well as out of vanity as I like to ensure I have as much muscle and as little fat on my physique as possible.

I find myself increasingly disgusted by meat the more contact I have with animals. And I would like to be vegetarian. The only reason I do not is because of the above two reasons. I much prefer the taste of plant material. And while many might find this strange I absolutely love the taste and texture of tofu and how it soaks up sauce. So I am wondering whether eating meat is necessary to meet these objectives or whether I am relying on false information.

Being vege I think would substantially reduce food costs as well.

Can anyone provide some unbiased, objective and scientific advice on these points, or point me in the direction of such information?

[slsdly]

To a certain extent, I distrust everything about nutrition out there. Everybody lies.

As for the science, nothing beats personalized medicine. Get a blood test done. They can measure your levels of vitamin B12, iron (not just hemoglobin!), zinc, etc. Get your GP to run a set, now you have established a baseline for yourself. Then eat your new diet, and get tested again a year later, or more. Keep a journal tracking any mood changes or new cravings as your body may give you a warning. Rinse, repeat. We all have our deviations from the mean, and handle a plant vs meat based diet differently.

[BRUTE]

while brute eats pretty much the opposite diet, why would thrifty++ not simply try it out? that's how brute arrived at his current diet.

[Scott 2]

Why not make small changes and see how they impact you?

I've been vegetarian for 15 years. I believe you can eat a healthy, balanced diet. It's more work, and I don't think it supports the same physical extremes as an omnivorous diet.

My recommendation is to avoid the label or making your diet part of your identity.

[m741]

I've been a vegetarian for more than 20 years (I'm 29 now). I felt the same way when I switched. It made me sick to think of where the meat came from (not just for moral reasons, but also thinking about eating a corpse). It hasn't caused any problems I'm aware of, and I've done bloodwork.

That's anecdotal, but there's plenty of studies if you prefer. And plenty of cultures that eat little or no meat (look at a large percent of Indians, or the jain religion). For a very long time meat was a luxury, so historically people were mostly vegetarian. I don't judge people who eat meat, but not eating it is better for the environment and easier to justify ethically, so you've got that going for you. It's also cheaper than eating meat. Personally I don't think either is really healthier, but then I don't trust nutrition science for the most part.

I agree with the others. You have every reason to be a vegetarian right now. You even like tofu. Just stop eating meat, take a multivitamin if you're feeling paranoid, and see if you feel better or worse every week or two. You'll probably feel better, just because you don't like eating meat and you won't have to. If you feel worse, at least you tried.

I'm not sure how you feel about eggs and dairy (vegan vs vegetarian). But it's very easy to be vegetarian right now: lots of tasty alternatives, lots of menu options at restaurants. So being a vegetarian isn't even much of a challenge.

[ThisDinosaur]

+1 to eggs and dairy. Very high in protein, and neither require killing an animal. Maybe thrifty can clarify his "disgust" with animal products? Also, eggs/dairy are typically the cheapest sources of protein dollars-per-gram. In the US at least. Maybe different in NZ.

Wrt muscle building, there are a few vegan bodybuilders. And there is some evidence you dont need as much protein for muscle building as popular culture implies.

[Scott 2]

Meat is more than just protein. It's very hard to find someone who has achieved a high level of muscular development without eating meat. Most of the vegan bodybuilders are very lean in photos, and it hides how physically small they are.

I've run across a few who have gotten there, then switched their diet. They seem to do ok, but are very rare. So much so, that I wonder if it isn't anabolics keeping them there.

Though, those are physical extremes that have little to do with health.

IMO, the way nutrition science has to generalize over populations, makes it difficult to apply to yourself, for diet optimization.

B12, vitamin D3, DHA, iron, creatine, protein - those are the nutrients I've found beneficial to supplement. I do get lazy on it though, cause taking pills and powders is no fun.

[rfgh]

+1 to eggs and dairy. Very high in protein, and neither require killing an animal.

False.

[BRUTE]

yea, not that much protein. false!

[Jean]

Cheese can be 40% protein. But dairy requires calf to be killed. Unless i have been lied to.

[ThisDinosaur]

Alright, you got me on the milk. What about eggs? Store bought eggs are unfertilized. Farmed laying hens are bred to produce eggs all year round. Does thrifty consider free range eggs unethical?

What about eating "lower" animals like invertebrates?

[lente]

Cheese can be 40% protein. But dairy requires calf to be killed. Unless i have been lied to.

The calf is not killed. Modern day dairy cows, frysian cows, have had centuries of human selection for yield. They produce way more than a calf needs. And the colostrum cows produce is given to the calf since it's not fit for normal dairy. Dairy calves lack no sustenance, and are definitely not killed.

Female calves are raised to become cows. Bull calves are raised into adolescence for their meat.

Source: raised on a dairy farm.

[ThisDinosaur]

Female calves are raised to become cows. Bull calves are raised into adolescence for their meat.

Source: raised on a dairy farm.

Presumably some males are raised and bred for more dairy cows, yes?

[jacob]

I'd echo sldsy's sentiments. What works is personal. If you're serious, start keeping a record while trying different things and be consistent and your own science experiment for your particular body. Then see what works. If you're really serious, get some expert in sports medicine or [sports] diets to look at it.

In terms of averages, it's clear that humans are omnivorous. Macro nutrition paradigms (fat, carb, protein) change every decade ... but it's pretty clear that a diet of biscuits and diet soda is bad all around. Once you're mostly dialed in, though, the details for YOUR phenotype matters more than what averages out.

This means that population variance is high and therefore if you want to optimize diet and performance, you gotta figure out what works for your phenotype and be scientific about it (hypothesis, trial, verification perhaps with the assistance of an expert). If you just want to live in a non-stupid fashion (wrt health habits), eat a varied diet one Wheaton level above the Standard American Diet. http://earlyretirementextreme.com/food- ... costs.html

For bf% and body-size, also don't just look at diet but also at exercise habits. It's quite conceivable that you may not have what it takes to be Mr Universe in the genetic sense ... but that you might get better results from pursuing another exercise form than BB to maximize your particular potential. In my case, I started with BB routines and got nowhere even if I was stuffing my face to the best of my ability. Then tried kettlebells with more effect but still couldn't get beyond 180lbs ... but with HIIT/Insanity insanity that has been no problem. So that's my genes.

Also, google vegan athlete or bodybuilder or whatever you want to look like... most guys and girls seem to have a preferred body-type .. and people become a close approximation of how they eat and train ... so maybe google-image for that and do/eat what they do? It's quite likely that due to phenotype you'll never look like that. If so .. maybe pursue some other image. In any case, it's hard to go wrong by eating better than SAD and exercising strong/regularly.
http://earlyretirementextreme.com/the-p ... n-bod.html (click link in post for images)

Also seems the most never deliberately try to figure out what works for them ... and that the "winners" are mostly winning because their phenotype lucked into the prevailing paradigm of the time or alternatively whatever pursuit they were randomly interested in.

PS: As for the taste of meat. Yeah, I remember that feeling. Yuck!(*) I went lacto-ovo-veg when I moved out from home. Then I tried eating meat-lasagne a few months later and it was rather disgusting: greasy and rubbery. So after a few months of not eating a particular food, it'll be weird. I do remember making some asinine comments about sinews and blood vessels in those years but I wasn't doing it for ethical reasons. These days I/we treat meat as a condiment and some meat a couple of days a week. We don't consider meat a staple. Yesterday, we had fish (caught by a neighbor) and today we have the same as leftovers. Last week some "sausage" (for Europeans, Americans treat "sausage" as an actual meat product, like ground pork) was added to the pasta sauce most of which was based on beans and tomato sauce.

(*) These days I LOVE meat lasagna. I consider it a rare treat but that's my number one request when we go visit the in-laws.

[Gilberto de Piento]

@thrifty I dont have any scientific links but I want to say that I think you should give vegetarianism a shot if it appeals to you. Personally, I prefer to not eat most types of meat. I also am concerned about the treatment of animals.

I was veggie for a while but now eat only "ethical" meat maybe once per month. It seems to work for me though I am careful to eat a balanced diet. You do have to watch out that you don't start eating too much bread or other carbs.

My standard blood tests come back normal and athletic performance is good. I really don't think there's any reason to eat meat if you dont want to.

Token vegan athlete anecdotal evidence: Scott Jurek, very successful ultrarunner.

[BRUTE]

Macro nutrition paradigms (fat, carb, protein) change every decade ...

not that much. there are only 3 macros, and protein is very self-limiting. anything over 30-40% of energy balance in protein leads to rabbit starvation/protein poisoning. lower bound is maybe 10-15%? that's a pretty narrow band. there is a tiny bit of certain fats that can not be synthesized by the body, but it's really a trace amount.

so the big thing is basically distributing energy requirements between fats and carbs. it seems humans do have pretty specific genotypes here - some can eat anything, some only one. this might be genetic, what with agriculture vs. herding in different climates and what not.

below a certain threshold, the human metabolism switches from mainly glucose to mainly fatty acids. it seems the human body can theoretically use both at the same time, but does switch modes. this is probably a very simple evolutionary trick to enable omnivorism and fasting during lean times.

there is evidence that the glucose (carb) pathways in the body can "burn out" over decades of abuse - it's unclear if this is only the case for some humans, because they're not genetically adapted to carbs, or if the same could happen to the fat pathways.

but the big switch in macros is basically carbs vs. fats, with a tiny bit of "low protein" vs. "high protein" within a narrow band.

[thrifty++]

Alright, you got me on the milk. What about eggs? Store bought eggs are unfertilized. Farmed laying hens are bred to produce eggs all year round. Does thrifty consider free range eggs unethical?

What about eating "lower" animals like invertebrates?

Its not necessarily the ethics driving me. More feeling revolted by meat. So eggs really dont bother me at all. I quite like eggs. Same with milk. And cheese. Love it.

I am quite fine with eating some invertebrates. Like clams and scallops and prawns and calamari. I enjoyed eating muscles for a long time until I discovered the brown part I had been eating all this time was its poo sack. Dry reach!

I feel sick at the thought of eating insects.

[lente]

Female calves are raised to become cows. Bull calves are raised into adolescence for their meat.

Source: raised on a dairy farm.

Presumably some males are raised and bred for more dairy cows, yes?

Very few. Let's say that every farmer has one bull for breeding with the adolescent female cows. That's because insemination failure rate is higher when they haven't been pregnant before. After that first pregnancy they tend to be artificially inseminated, humans aren't done tinkering with genetics yet. And artificial insemination has other upsides too. The sperm for nearly all artificial insemination is supplied by a few bulls. No more than a few 100 in total.

So there are 264 million dairy cows? (Random internet source). They get 1 calf a year. 50/50 female/male. I assume that farms average a hundred dairy cows. So thats 2.6 million dairy farms. And farm bull can do several years of duty before it gets too big. They mature in about 15 months. So you do not need very many bulls at all. Of the 132 million that are born I'd say less than/about 1% is for breeding, factoring in turnover rate.

[Dragline]

I agree with those who say "give it a go and see what happens".

[fiby41]