What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

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7Wannabe5
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:23 am

I am not necessarily a huge advocate of "What would primitive man do?" method of ideal human diet planning, but one interesting thing I learned recently is that 2700 kcal/day was the normal requirements for a man living during times when manual labor was needfully employed. So, for instance, if I was a woman running a boarding house in a mining town in 1842, my boarders likely would be losing weight and complaining if I didn't provide them with something like cornbread or pie for breakfast. My ex-husband and my DS28 are both tall and ectomorphic, so there was no way I could afford to feed them without something like pasta or rice at every meal, and fights for the last piece of chicken. They both lost too much weight right after I kicked them to the curb, but have balanced out at right around lowest possible healthy weight eating what would be a terrible weight-maintenance diet for most people (including myself and my DD25.)

So, the first suggestion I might make is that in addition to more vegetables, and less kcal, some sort of exercise that approximates a good deal of manual labor, or even actual manual labor might be helpful. IOW, instead of focusing first on lowering kcals to level in accordance with modern desk job (2200 kcal ?) and then taking the number down even further for weight loss (1700 kcal ?), first focus on raising activity to a level that would actually burn 2700 kcals/day if you were at a healthy weight/shape/fitness for you. Based mostly on my reading of young adult novels in which the hero or heroine emerges tougher and leaner, I would suggest that doing actual work with tangible results will prove most psychologically efficacious. For instance, make plan to transform 20 lbs. of body fat into X feet of stone wall construction. Walking or biking for transportation purposes will also serve.

My second suggestion would be to develop the practice of converting or processing some vegetables and fruit one step up the chain each morning. Rinse, chop, put in a bowl on the table, pack in your lunch box, throw into crock-pot with some broth, drop in pickle jar etc. etc. etc. I must admit I have only been intermittently good with this habit, but it makes a very large difference in what I end up eating throughout the day as my level of sloth and apathy increases.

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BRUTE
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by BRUTE » Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:32 am

Felipe wrote:I still haven't seen anyone argue against eating more vegetables or eating less kcal, which confirms my suspicions that these are the key levers here.
challenge accepted. brute wasn't going to say anything, but all that fiber is going to fuck up Felipe's intestines and give him bloating and gas. insoluble fiber is like eating grass and leaves - it's not immediately going to kill Felipe, but there's no reason for it and it'll damage intestinal lining over time, as well as hinder the digestive process.

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BRUTE
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by BRUTE » Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:35 am

vexed87 wrote:in my experience, skipping meals, or small plates eventually leads to lethargy and urges to binge .. plenty of starch
sure does. a high-carb diet that doesn't control insulin doesn't get rid of the hunger issue. let brute assure vexed87 that there is no hunger on a ketogenic diet, and no physiological hunger (though psychological desire to eat is still there) after multi-day fasts.

on a ketogenic diet, there just isn't any hunger. doesn't matter how big the deficit, as long as it can be made up via body fat.
vexed87 wrote:Long term fasting compromises the immune system, muscles are cannibalised for protein, including your heart, magnesium and potassium, are depleted quickly and are essential for healthy heart function. Also, body fat actually stores fat soluble toxins from various sources, including pesticides, preservatives, food additives, heavy metals, pollutants, plastics and other environmental chemicals, so if fat is depleted rapidly, your going to have a harder time detoxing, leading to accumulative and permanent kidney and liver damage. I'm sure there's more, but my time is precious!
might depend on the definition of "long term" - once again, brute isn't advocating to do this beyond the point where no more body fat is available. but until then, there is very little muscle being used for protein, magnesium and potassium levels haven't been shown to decrease significantly, and brute has yet to hear of anyone getting liver damage.

alas, the answer is simply "no". vexed87 is wrong.
Last edited by BRUTE on Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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BRUTE
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by BRUTE » Fri Dec 09, 2016 10:37 am

7Wannabe5 wrote:2700 kcal/day was the normal requirements for a man living during times when manual labor was needfully employed .. My ex-husband and my DS28 are both tall and ectomorphic, so there was no way I could afford to feed them without something like pasta or rice at every meal
2700/9 is 300g of fat per day. really not that expensive.

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vezkor
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by vezkor » Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:52 pm

I do not want you to think I'm picking on you vexed87, but I do want to highlight the change in mindset when the topic is "body fat" and not "debt" when the two are extremely similar in how they impact many people... I picked this post because it echoes a lot of "common sense" thinking that might be missing the mark, especially since this is ERE (Early Retirement Extreme) and not ARA (Average Retirement, Adequate) Imagine the following:
vexed87 wrote:@Felipe, major calorie restriction isn't a solution, not to be confused with calories deficit, we need a slight deficit to burn fat, in my experience, skipping meals, or small plates eventually leads to lethargy and urges to binge. Opinion is divided where your calories need to come from, but plenty of starch, as per my most recent experience makes weight loss possible without hunger pangs, and for obvious reasons is sustainable! :D

https://www.drmcdougall.com/health/shop ... -solution/
metaphor wrote:@Felipe, major savings rate isn't a solution, not to be confused with regular payments, we need a slight payment to pay down principal, in my experience, making extra payments, or reducing your expenses eventually leads to not being able to buy starbucks and urges to go to the mall and buy gadgets. Opinion is divided where your income needs to come from, but plenty of working a job, as per my most recent experience makes paying debt possible without giving up starbucks, and for obvious reasons is sustainable! :D

https://www.drmcdougall.com/health/shop ... -solution/
Again, I'm 100% not picking on vexed87. My goal is to illustrate that weight loss is a VERY EMOTIONAL TOPIC and, typically, people substitute the subjective for the objective. What is possible gets confused for what is comfortable. Think Dave Ramsey's emotional "pay the small debts first" method... even though it's mathematically not the best way, it does tend to work, just slower than the mathematically best way. Well, for weight loss (as I mentioned previously) it seems to be 95% perseverance, but that doesn't mean there isn't a BEST WAY. Everybody intrinsically knows HOW to lose weight, just like everybody intrinsically knows HOW to pay debt. It's how you think about it and your level of determination that usually matters, not the fine details.

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vexed87
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by vexed87 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:58 pm

BRUTE wrote:brute isn't advocating to do this beyond the point where no more body fat is available. but until then, there is very little muscle being used for protein, magnesium and potassium levels haven't been shown to decrease significantly, and brute has yet to hear of anyone getting liver damage.

alas, the answer is simply "no". vexed87 is wrong.
That depends how long you call long, A prolonged fast from 20-25% (typical overweight male) to 8% (athlete) body fat would jeopardise health for many reasons.

ehem... :roll: protein can be consumed for energy, or stored as fat, but it's required primarily for the amino acids required for the construction of the innumerable biomolecules the body needs to function. Fat however cannot revert to amino acids, therefore any long term fast will quickly result in cannibalisation of any and all muscles for their amino acids. Fasting will result in cumulative destruction of existing muscle, cycling from feast and famine is a terrible idea, you're putting your health at risk, seriously, don't do it, any underlying health issues could land you in hospital, or worse, dead.

Also, no one was proposing uncontrolled insulin, if you read the book it explains which kind of carbs need to be avoided for this reason. OP would do well to read up on this himself and come to his own conclusions rather than take brutes word for it!

@vekzor, totally agree with you! However, there is a difference between good and bad, and what's plain dangerous! Again, fasting in moderation, probably not a bad thing, just dont go crazy with it! Avoid the cumulative damage. No one died from a week long fast (except the guy with 2% body fat!)

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daylen
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by daylen » Fri Dec 09, 2016 5:14 pm

@vexed87 You very well could be right, but the way you are presenting your argument is not very convincing (which I assume you trying to be). Especially on this forum, you will not get very far just by saying that something is true.

steveo73
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by steveo73 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:13 pm

vexed87 wrote:Don't focus on weight-loss, unless that is the sole goal. I do not dispute that fasting is the fastest means of weight-loss. However, if the goal is good health, i.e. not being overweight and at risk of attributed lifestyle diseases whilst obtaining adequate nutrition, fasting is simply not a real solution, its like treating a symptom and not the disease. Fasting would simply be the means to the wrong end (weight loss), without a shift in paradigm, the weight will undoubtedly return and OP would be stuck in a cycle of feast/famine. Eat less, or crash diets are the conventional advice, they are the "save 10% of income" of the diet world. The ERE grade advice would be to eat the right foods in the first place, not less. Weight loss does not need to be rapid, unless there is some vanity complex, i.e. must look good on the beach in 6 weeks. It should be part of a wider adaptation to a healthier lifestyle. Eat less relies on extreme vigilance and discipline, and eating right relies on crafting new habits. Both take some measure of will power, but one tends to stick, while the other doesn't.

My personal experience is that eating right is more important that will power, as I do not have the mental energy to police my portion sizes and count every calorie I consume.
I completely agree with this in relation to diet but also to lots of things. To put it more generally just start doing the right things and let the results happen when they happen. I think that this is relevant to most aspects of life.

Also you can lose weight but what is the point. To me the point is to focus on health. Losing weight is good but focussing on health does lead to weight loss as well assuming that you are overweight.

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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by steveo73 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 7:18 pm

Ego wrote:A short video of a wide variety of actual real live experts talking about it.... as opposed to a bunch of writers with degrees in journalism and few chemists or nutritionists who saddle up to the the Atkins/Dairy / Cattleman's trough.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8sGE5n-i1Q
I am still amazed at the lack of education of the general population on diet. This is not a subject with subjective evidence behind it or maybe better put the evidence is pretty clear cut. It requires to me such a low level of logical reasoning to determine what is proven to be the correct way to eat.

So many people though appear to be completely ignorant. I do not understand this at all. I just don't get it.

I should add that I definitely don't believe that you have to be vegan or maybe better put eat perfectly all the time. I also don't believe that any respected nutritionist (in your words real live experts) believe this as well. It's simply a matter of eating healthy food a lot more than unhealthy food. Placing food into the correct categories is actually easy.

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BRUTE
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by BRUTE » Sat Dec 10, 2016 2:37 am

steveo73 wrote:This is not a subject with subjective evidence behind it or maybe better put the evidence is pretty clear cut. .. It's simply a matter of eating healthy food a lot more than unhealthy food. Placing food into the correct categories is actually easy.
so if a human ate a diet almost exclusively consisting of red meat, butter, heavy cream, bacon, MCT/coconut oil, coffee, and some vegetables for taste (soaked in butter), would that human move towards being more healthy or less healthy? and which health markers exactly should be expected to move in which directions?

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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by steveo73 » Sat Dec 10, 2016 3:56 am

BRUTE wrote:
steveo73 wrote:This is not a subject with subjective evidence behind it or maybe better put the evidence is pretty clear cut. .. It's simply a matter of eating healthy food a lot more than unhealthy food. Placing food into the correct categories is actually easy.
so if a human ate a diet almost exclusively consisting of red meat, butter, heavy cream, bacon, MCT/coconut oil, coffee, and some vegetables for taste (soaked in butter), would that human move towards being more healthy or less healthy? and which health markers exactly should be expected to move in which directions?
That would definitely be unhealthy. I would expect over time that you would have higher cholesterol readings and even if you weren't overweight you would develop atherosclerosis.

The problem is that you may believe everything is okay but at some point a diet like that is leading you towards a path of suffering from strokes, heart disease etc.

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BRUTE
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by BRUTE » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:40 pm

well, there are known markers for stroke, heart disease, diabetes, and so on. the best one for heart disease currently known seems to be the ratio of HDL to triglycerides - and a high fat diet optimizes this ratio. diabetes has HgA1c, which is absolutely lower than anything on a keto diet (it's basically inversely related to carb consumption). stroke brute isn't sure about the markers.

regarding body fat, it has gone in the opposite direction pretty dramatically. fasting/keto has led to more muscle and less body fat.

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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by steveo73 » Sat Dec 10, 2016 4:22 pm

BRUTE wrote:well, there are known markers for stroke, heart disease, diabetes, and so on. the best one for heart disease currently known seems to be the ratio of HDL to triglycerides - and a high fat diet optimizes this ratio. diabetes has HgA1c, which is absolutely lower than anything on a keto diet (it's basically inversely related to carb consumption). stroke brute isn't sure about the markers.

regarding body fat, it has gone in the opposite direction pretty dramatically. fasting/keto has led to more muscle and less body fat.
Brute - do you understand the difference between anecdotal evidence and empirical scientific evidence ? I'll give an example. My grandfather smoked for years. He only had mild emphysema right before he died and he had a good death. One week of going in and out and then he died of old age. Does that mean that smoking is okay ?

Some other good questions to answer for yourself could be:-

1. Do technical discussions of complex subjects where people state things that have no relevance in the big picture matter ?
2. Can you potentially be thin and still suffer from atherosclerosis ?
3. Does empirical scientific data have any part in your belief system ?

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BRUTE
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by BRUTE » Sat Dec 10, 2016 5:45 pm

what does anecdotal evidence vs. empirical evidence have to do with different health markers like HgA1c, HDL, trigs..?

1.they do to brute
2.presumably, yes
3.a certain part, but brute takes it with a grain of salt - brute has seen so much difference between "science" (or what others claim is science) and what brute has seen work in real life, that he must ask himself if "science" isn't just a label that humans throw on stuff when they don't have arguments.

for example, if going vegan makes brute feel miserable and only produces moderate fat loss, while eating keto makes him feel great and produces much better fat loss, combined with less muscle loss, what's brute supposed to do? ignore reality?

in addition, lots of nutrition "science" is just bullshit. brute has no respect for the label science, brute has respect for well-done studies. most nutritional studies are not well done.

for example, brute doesn't care much for correlation, epidemiology, studies in mice, studies where the "low-carb, high-fat ketogenic diet" consisted of 30% sugar, 30% casein, and 40% trans fats, or any other such nonsense.

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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by Felipe » Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:17 am

@7wannabe5
I agree on exercising more. I don't feel I'm eating much more than before (always feasted) but exercise has gradually decreased, and weight has followed suit to increase. Biking has been on my mind for a while so this may be a great opportunity to habitualize that.

I do keep a vegetable soup always ready, prepared every few days.

@Brute
I appreciate your bravery in standing for your beliefs. I also have no doubt that this may work very well for you (seems to be high protein & fat, virtually no carbs, few veggies).

I used to eat a lot of protein but found it made my stomach hurt more. For me-short term fasting feels great, as does eating less food, and more veggies.

You mentioned health problems that can come up from excessive vegetables but this seems like something that would happen at extremes.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 4016300775

Talks about one of the many uses of fiber, to help your gut bacteria produce butyrate.

http://www.webmd.com/diet/guide/high-pr ... rate-diets

Mentions some of the risks of high protein-ie-increased kidney stone risks.

Interesting to mention is that high protein often helps with weight loss, counteracting many health risks.

@Steveo3 & Vexed87
I think you missed the part where I talked about adding in more vegetables, eating less simple carbs, and making these into long term habits. I'm in agreement there.

Medium term fasting is simply a tool I'm considering to facilitate paying off this debt I've accumulated.

Update: Seems I've reached an equilibrium, around 210 lbs.

Still eating less bread and sugar. Still drinking green juice most days, vegetable soup daily, checking in before eating.

Once holidays are over, I plan to add vegetable soup for 3 vegetable based meals a day, integrate biweekly fasting (24-36hrs), cut sugar and bread completely, and add in daily biking.

Exactly in what order is still up in the air. I do best at building habits one at a time.

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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by steveo73 » Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:33 pm

Felipe - that all sounds good to me. I personally don't think diet is that hard. You just have to try and make it a lifestyle choice. I think the idea of fasting sounds like a short term measure. I really have no issues with that so long as you get into leading a healthy lifestyle.

7Wannabe5
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:43 pm

BRUTE said: 2700/9 is 300g of fat per day. really not that expensive.
Half pound of butter and a dozen eggs is going to run me about $4/2500 kcal. The same number of calories in the form of Vanilla Sandwich Cookies purchased at the Dollar Tree would run me only around $1.50. Ergo, I would have to have at least an extra $30,000 saved up to retire on the scrambled eggs diet rather than the cookie diet, and I am not even taking into consideration the fuel and time necessary to cook the eggs.

Unfortunately, I must report that my repeated attempts to survive on the all cookie and no exercise diet have ended in failure due to unpleasant feeling of shakiness followed by drooling mid-afternoon nap. However, I once did very well for around 3 or 4 months while eating almost nothing but homemade biscuits and frozen green peas with daily regimen of Jane Fonda workout on cassette tape. My catfish, spinach salad and apple-caramel lollipops diet and walking 8 miles/day with hyper-active dog regime also led to rapid loss of a serious chunk of body fat.

Counting calories in and out is f*ck-all tedious, but it does work, and offers the most degrees of freedom.

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BRUTE
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by BRUTE » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:34 am

probably depends on the definition of freedom. for brute, keto + fasting offers much more freedom than anything he's tried before - freedom from counting, freedom from hunger, freedom from cravings. freedom from eating, really.

in other news, brute forgot how cheap carbs are. been so long.

edit: the comparison isn't really fair, though. if 7Wannabe5 is going to compare high-quality foods like butter and eggs to cheap sugar and wheat. what's a gallon of vegetable oil run these days?

7Wannabe5
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:32 am

BRUTE said: the comparison isn't really fair, though. if 7Wannabe5 is going to compare high-quality foods like butter and eggs to cheap sugar and wheat. what's a gallon of vegetable oil run these days?
I was trying to make it apples to apples at the level of least expensive example people actually find palatable. Better example might be 2500 calories of whole oats and bananas vs. 2500 calories of deviled eggs prepared with heavy dollop of mayo. Using mayo instead of butter might lower the cost of fat/protein to around $3.50 and using whole oats and bananas might raise the cost of carb/plant to around $2.50.
probably depends on the definition of freedom. for brute, keto + fasting offers much more freedom than anything he's tried before - freedom from counting, freedom from hunger, freedom from cravings. freedom from eating, really.
Right. Like how if you work for a corporation in a narrow job description you are freed from having to make a million different decisions. You just go through your daily routine like a panda eating bamboo.

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BRUTE
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by BRUTE » Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:15 am

also like meditation frees one from worry. brute never worries about food any more. he still thinks about it a lot, but it's no big deal to not eat for 24h when the plane only serves crap and the airport restaurants are ridiculous.

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vezkor
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by vezkor » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:50 pm

BRUTE wrote:also like meditation frees one from worry. brute never worries about food any more. he still thinks about it a lot, but it's no big deal to not eat for 24h when the plane only serves crap and the airport restaurants are ridiculous.
Better yet to not fly

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BRUTE
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by BRUTE » Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:55 pm

7Wannabe5 wrote:Like how if you work for a corporation in a narrow job description you are freed from having to make a million different decisions. You just go through your daily routine like a panda eating bamboo.
brute has been thinking about this. for him, it's exactly the opposite.

if hunger is like material desires, keto/fasting is like ERE. instead of being addicted to carbs or living paycheck to paycheck, there's freedom to abstain. both might look like huge sacrifices to others, who think they could never live without {a car/a mcmansion/cake/pasta/daily meals}. yet through adhering to these "limitations", other freedoms are gained - retiring from work, or from hunger.

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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:07 am

@BRUTE: My true-not-silly objection to your ideal diet is that I have attempted it on numerous occasions, and it does not work for "ME" due to eventual lack of compliance. I think it is great if it works for you or anybody else. I also think that obesity is a problem that is wide-spread, serious and complex enough that any combination of motivators and practices that work for anybody ought to red-stamped as FANTASTIC!!! I would even go so far as to suggest that maybe they ought to put the cocaine back in Coke.

I think a couple of the under-explored topics related to obesity are hydration and temperature. Both over-hydration and under-hydration lead to reduction in appetite. I think that is why people who drink their calories tend towards really ballooning. Also, it seems to me that one "cheat" for quick re-set of fat burn/appetite reduction after ingestion of carbohydrates is to simply pop an OTC diuretic with a large mug of black coffee chaser. Obviously, doing something like running several miles on the beach (if you want to paint appealing picture) or riding several miles on an exercise bike you ground-scored on the curb while wearing a suit you constructed out of Hefty bags and duct-tape (less appealing picture) would likely also prove helpful. OTOH, activities such as swimming in cold water, hiking through the snow, or sitting in air conditioning tend towards increasing appetite.

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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by Papers of Indenture » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:09 am

Nutritionfacts.org is interesting. Every time I go there and browse I leave less sure of anything than when I arrived.

The comment section almost always become a sea of sincere people trying to come to terms with conflicting studies and overall confusion.

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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by oldbeyond » Thu Dec 15, 2016 2:18 pm

I'd say the two most important variables are energy density(decrease) and food quality(increase). Determining the specifics of the latter can be murky, but you come a long way by avoiding "food products" and instead buying "whole foods".

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