Work vs. Exercise

[IlliniDave]

I think six pack abs are pretty rare on anyone over 50, especially if the standard is what can be achieved by people 30 years younger. For me looking at females there no special appeal to a six pack per se. But I like some definition is the shoulders, upper back, and upper arms. Usually that comes with good posture and a confident bearing.

Nutrition has relatively little to do with abdominal muscles per se, but I believe it has a lot to do with the thickness of belly fat that lies above and obscures them. Power lifters have amazing core strength, but usually aren't lean enough to show off the muscles visually. Actually, everyone has a six pack under there somewhere, it's just a matter of unmasking it via leanness as much as the elasticity of the skin will allow. When I was in my upper middle 40s the best I could manage was a two-pack with a hint of a four-pack. Those last two were hopelessly hidden by middle age sag. Gravity is relentless in out universe!

[BRUTE]

Actually, everyone has a six pack under there somewhere

that's what brute keeps telling himself

[BRUTE]

Yes, its a cult. Its also astonishingly effective.

similar experiences. CrossFitters are almost the only ones that do both heavy lifting and lots of metcon and even mid-range cardio. the only other group of people brute can think of are professional fighters (boxers, MMA, ..), and those are pretty rare. the combination seems pretty unheard of, and for somewhat good reason: brute thinks it can lead to overtraining more easily than "only" doing cardio or "only" lifting 3x per week.

but it does work.

[7Wannabe5]

IlliniDave said: But I like some definition is the shoulders, upper back, and upper arms. Usually that comes with good posture and a confident bearing.

Like this?

Actually, everyone has a six pack under there somewhere, it's just a matter of unmasking it via leanness as much as the elasticity of the skin will allow.

I don't know if this is true. Even in my youthful micro-string bikini wearing days, I possessed nothing resembling even the hint of a 2 pack, and I've seen some ectomorphic men at POW weight with every rib clearly defined, but still no 6 pack visible. OTOH, I think the closest thing to a 6 pack I have seen on a man over 50 was on a 56 year old guy who biked some serious mileage and lifted. He was definitely in the upper echelon for aerobic endurance also. Unfortunately, he did not have any decent books in his house, so I had to make the cut (sigh.)

[IlliniDave]

7wb5,

Not really, more like this

http://blog.sevanmatossian.com/wp-conte ... lanc-1.jpg

http://www.listal.com/viewimage/7985007h

Two years after the first photo she (Camille Leblanc-Bazinet) won the Crossfit Games and she's slightly beefier now. Google her name and there's tons of pictures out there. She's still competing, and finished in the middle of the field yesterday. Not sure of the date on the second photo.

Everyone has those muscles that when visible beneath the skin are described as a "six-pack", unless they've had some sort of anatomical trauma. Like any other muscle how visible it is is a function of leanness and tightness of the skin. I suppose people who are extremely emaciated and have consumed most of their muscle tissue in response to famine or disease might never get the right proportion of skin area to muscle surface for them to show, but for healthy people, especially younger ones ...

[enigmaT120]

the only other group of people brute can think of are professional fighters (boxers, MMA, ..),

Oh yeah, even 1 minute beating on my heavy bag leaves me a limp rag. Beating people up is hard work. Getting beat up is just as hard but hurts even worse.

[7Wannabe5]

@IlliniDave: Gotcha. That's cool. Mesomorphs need love too. However, not exactly selling me on the Crossfit since not only would it be impossible for me to look like that, I don't even want to look like that, although I suppose the super-powers could come in useful at times. My ideal would be some sort of special sauce morph of Kim Novak, Beyonce and Goldie Hawn. Anyways, I'm starting to think it doesn't even matter what I look like because I am likely soon going to join you in the confirmed single person ranks. The reason being that I am a selfish, cranky old woman who will no longer tolerate even one iota of poor behavior. The Cowboy has been vanquished from my circle for texting "WTF" in response to being informed that I would not be available as early this afternoon as I previously anticipated. At this point in my life, there is not a damn thing any man has to offer that is going to make me put up with any level of crap ever again. I may still look like a character from Beatrix Potter on the outside, but the innards, they are tougher than any of those Cross Fit bee-yotches.

[IlliniDave]

7wb5, I would agree that if your concern is primarily appearance, Crossfit is probably not for you. That people who participate in Crossfit tend to improve in appearance is just a happy coincidence. There are other regimens that endeavor to address those appearance-related things more directly. Crossfit at its heart is an athletic endeavor measured by athletic performance ("more work faster").

I wouldn't underestimate the internal mettle of any high level Crossfit Athlete, even if they happen to be pretty.

[BRUTE]

yea, brute has gotten kicked the shit out of him (metaphorically) by quite a few of dem 90lbs girls.. beasts at front squats and pull-ups and thrusters..

[7Wannabe5]

@IlliniDave: I would say my 3 primary concerns would be appearance, health and functional fitness (being fit into the future for the functions I enjoy), but not athleticism. I don't like sports. I will not watch the Olympics unless it happens to be on the screen somewhere I happen to be for some other reason. I never attend or watch any sporting events unless I am dragged along. However, I do enjoy dance, and would very much like to improve my limited skills in that realm, so I am able to encourage myself towards performing my Tabata intervals in the hope that they will render me better able to do some difficult dance moves, just like I'm sure some of you are encouraged towards greater levels of fitness by hope of better sports performance.

Anyways, I thought my new training regime was making me more tough, but it was just influencing my hormonal levels in the direction of causing me to suffer from much worse than usual PMS for a couple days. Now I am back to my normal, happy, easy-going self (sigh of relief ) The Cowboy apologized and made me laugh by referring to me as "the Princess", so I let him back into my circle. I even sewed his comforter for him because I felt bad about losing my temper, and I was afraid he was going to put it in the washing machine and ruin it. I also had to interact with the Peacemaker and the Permaculture Manager yesterday, and it was very hot. So, my adult feminine cool energy reserves were tapped as dry as the only bottle of Gatorade at a Crossfit Convention. Obviously, adult feminine energy is currently less available in our culture than adult masculine energy, or I wouldn't have 3 very attractive partners who take me out to dinner almost every night, give me gifts and help me with my projects, right? I just need enough adult masculine energy to find success at my own little solo hip-hop routine (creative permaculture project) and maintain enough core strength to catch myself if I am dropped in the dip (very frugal level financial independence.)

[IlliniDave]

Athleticism and sports are not synonymous. Dance is an example.

What I see myself doing down the road involves rowing, jumping, climbing, running, walking, carrying heavy things, throwing, lifting heavy things, squatting, getting down on the ground, getting up off the ground, sitting up. All those "functions" are inherently athletic and most older folks in western societies lose the ability to do the majority of them prematurely. None of that has to do with sports, just living. And hat's the niche Crossfit has found for the vast majority of its participants that compete in no sports. It's really no different in that respect than what you are describing you do yourself.

My view (and yeah, it overlaps with the Crossfit Koolaid) is that there's a lot of overlap in training in ways that benefit a competitive athlete (who wants to improve performance in some sport) and training in ways that benefit an everyday athlete (who just wants to maintain/improve the strength, flexibility, balance, stamina, and coordination, required to do their mundane everyday activities).

[7Wannabe5]

@IlliniDave:

I think we are mostly on the same page. However, we are also right back to the original topic of this thread. If a person is stuck in an office/commute lifestyle 5 days/week, then they will likely not be spending a good deal of their time doing activities such as dancing, rowing, jumping, squatting, walking,chopping etc., so it makes sense for that person to do Crossfit or Tabata Intervals or some efficient aerobic activity such as running with some of their limited free time. BUT, if you are somebody like me who, although not at all athletic and quite inclined towards cookie addiction, has been able to mostly schedule her own activities, for approximately the last 14 years (age 37-51), and you wonder why it appears to be the case that you appear to be more "in shape" than most of your peers, you might come to the conclusion that simply having the free time and energy to engage in moderate physical activity on a regular basis might be the "good" of which the "great" may be the enemy. IOW, efficient fitness regimes may be the insufficient antidote to an inherently unhealthy lifestyle. This is partially based on my perhaps biased observation that the individuals I know who are very career ambitious and also very efficient-style fit, are also generally total stress puppies.

IOW, I still don't understand why it would be the case that I will be able to load 10 gallons of water into my wagon and pull it to my lot, and then squat down and garden for an hour, 6 days a week every week from now until the last day I am 79, but then suddenly on the day I turn 80, I will not be able to do this, and the reason will be because I should have done something more intense and efficient like CrossFit training. OTOH, it makes perfect sense to me that if I want to still be doing CrossFit at level 22 when I am 80 then I need to be doing CrossFit at level 22 when I am 52. I mean, doesn't the fact that you are noticing that you aren't as fit for your Northern woods solo activities as when you were younger likely have more to do with the fact that you haven't been in the Northern woods very much, than that you stopped doing CrossFit?

[7Wannabe5]

Squats: 15/15/14/15/15/15/14/14
Girl Push-Ups: 12/11/10/10/9/9/8/8

My measurements still haven't budged, but I do seem to have either added muscle tone or swollen up like a tick from exertion. Apparently my level of arm muscle development is still at the level of "cute that I think that I have any muscle", to partial outside observers, but I can tell the difference. I spent $1 and purchased a used pair of 100% polyester black Teamwork brand athletic shorts, likely intended for the playing of softball. I intend to wear these shorts, along with some all black athletic shoes, no show black socks, and black french cut t-shirt I already own, for my hip-hop dance routine costume. I thought I might look a little too much like Angus Young's Aunt in this costume, but I got some positive feedback when I walked around town wearing it.

[Kriegsspiel]

Sometimes you don't see movements in the measurements in a while, then a "whoosh" happens and they go down considerably all of a sudden. So be prepared for that.

[IlliniDave]

7wb5,

I'm not trying to talk you into Crossfit. I've said many times it is not for everyone. If you have an active life and enjoy what you're doing, how well you're able to do it, how you look and feel, and your present level of health, there's no burning platform to change anything.

I've known farmers who remained very physically active until very late ages (literally dropping dead while happily working in their fields or or with their livestock) who never thought twice about exercising for fitness. In my book they win.

I can counter your anecdote with the many people I know who work behind desks and augment their weekend/evening physical activities with "working out" several times a week that are far from being stressed out or in bad shape. The opposite more aptly describes them. One just finished in the top ten of our age bracket in the Crossfit Games. Another recently medaled at a Pan Am Olympic Lifting competition in one of the senior divisions at age 49. So my experience is that the people with more intense/focused fitness regimes than mine are fitter than me, by quite a lot, and I'm above average for a fifty-something. And I know those are "sports" but that doesn't detract from the underlying physical fitness these guys have. Plus, although they don't have the big "guns" you like (neither sport benefits from disproportional biceps) they both have very powerfully-built upper bodies.

When I get to that point in life that all my time is self directed, I'll probably keep intense physical exercise as part of my routine even though I anticipate a much more active overall lifestyle. One reason is that I find it fun. Another is that my particular physiology responds very well to it--I get a multiplier out of it in that the benefits are much broader based than the list of discrete tasks performed. For another person that might be complete waste of time. TEHO

This is a nit, but "muscle tone" is sort of a myth. Muscle tissue is muscle tissue. People you would look at and say have good muscle tone just have more muscle tissue relative to fatty tissue (iow, they are leaner) During and after exercise you're body will direct additional blood to fatigued muscles so they will temporarily swell a little bit. But what you are probably noticing is increased muscle mass, which is the body's natural response to increased physical activity. I've done Tabata interval workouts (Crossfit is extremely inclusive). They suck, which means they are great!

[jacob]

... my hip-hop dance routine costume...

Ahh, but Hip hop abs is the first step towards Insanity.

(Though I usually wear my Batman custome for extra oomph. I think most people have no idea what a cape does for burpee performance! )

[IlliniDave]

(Though I usually wear my Batman custome for extra oomph. I think most people have no idea what a cape does for burpee performance! )

LOL. I need to get me one of those!

[7Wannabe5]

Kriegsspiel said: Sometimes you don't see movements in the measurements in a while, then a "whoosh" happens and they go down considerably all of a sudden. So be prepared for that.

Thanks for the encouragement, but I went ahead and did the thing I told myself I wasn't going to do, and verified that the reason why my measurements haven't budged is that I have gained muscle without losing mass. IOW, my weight has definitely gone up a few lbs. Unless I was purely obsessed with improvement of BMI, this isn't necessarily all that bad of a trend for the moment. Since my waist to hip ratio was and remains 32/44.5 =.719, I was already well within the healthy zone for that measure for a woman of my height of something slightly less than 5'9". My sister confirmed that I definitely look more fit. She said that on a scale where 1 was our mother, and 10 was Jane Fonda, I would be at least a 7.5, or maybe even higher because it's not a smooth curve. Also, the widest point of my hip measure is definitely up higher in defiance of gravity, and my waist appears to be somewhat narrower or flatter, I think this is due to optical illusion created by fact that my back and shoulder muscles are holding my breasts up higher. IOW, as of this morning, I would not be embarrassed to be seen in public wearing nothing but stretchy shorts and a tank top, except for the fact that it would bring back memories of when certain leather jacket wearing individuals at the roller rink would tell me that I had to skate because this song was on:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrBx6mAWYPU

IlliniDave said: I've done Tabata interval workouts (Crossfit is extremely inclusive). They suck, which means they are great!

I now agree. Reason being that ,TA DA!!!, I did, not just one, but TWO boy push-ups this morning!!! So, I really am putting on muscle, not just fluid. The body weight squat intervals aren't making me sore anymore either. I can't figure out what is the factor limiting me at doing 15 in 20 seconds. I think it might just be that I can't focus on maintaining form if I go much faster than that. I just tried to do as many as I can in just one 20 second interval, and if I go for speed without thinking about form I can do 22. Maybe I need to put a box under my butt. I can also almost do a rolling one legged squat. I'm just a little bit too chicken on the balance. So, I am cool with the fact that I might end up as a walking counter-example to the rule of BMI by following this practice.

jacob said: I usually wear my Batman custome for extra oomph.

Excellent. Just learn the moves and you can be on my team. My 19 year old niece, who is a professional hip-hop video dancer, and also a front-and-back-flipping-across-the-floor counter-example to the rule of BMI, lives in Chicago, so we can maybe get her to coach us before the performance.

[BRUTE]

I did, not just one, but TWO boy push-ups this morning!!!

congratulations

brute thinks both 7Wannabe5 and CrossFitDave are right. people who discover that, at age 80, they can't lift a 10lbs box over their head, or can't lower themselves to the ground safely, weren't able to do this at age 79. they just hadn't tried for years, or likely, decades. 90% of maintaining mobility is just using full range of motion and not sitting all day.

so "nature's way" of maintaining or improving physical aspects of the human body was that all the things humans used to do to acquire food were great exercise. hunting, running, diving, swimming, squatting to pick up berries, hitting trees with an axe for firewood, throwing javelins, and so on.

obviously most modern humans with office jobs don't have the time to do all these things. in a way, working out is a hack, giving you many of the benefits of an "active hunter gatherer lifestyle" within just a few hours a week. in brute's opinion, CrossFit is one of the most efficient hacks out there. it's certainly the broadest, covering more activity than any other one thing brute knows of. it also leads to some of the best results. a CrossFitter might not beat a world champion sprinter in sprints, a world champion lifter in lifting, or a world champion marathoner in a marathon. but the CrossFitter will do very well in all these activities and more, whereas the others are specialists that likely suck at everything else.

on the flip side, the CrossFit "hack" is really only needed if one is unable to live a hunter gatherer lifestyle. it sounds like 7Wannabe5 is pretty much living in such a way that she only needs to supplement a few modalities that she doesn't get from her everyday life. she's definitely doing lots of squatting, long, slow walking, carrying heavy stuff, pulling heavy stuff, getting moderate aerobic exercise in the sack, dancing (great for coordination).

the reason brute suggested tabata intervals was that 7Wannabe5 said she was thinking about doing longer aerobic exercise like jogging, but she didn't like it because it felt like wasting a good chunk of time, and she couldn't really jog to a date or jog to buy groceries, because of logistics. brute thinks that tabata intervals, especially sprints and squats (maybe burpees?), are an excellent way of getting up heart rate, lungs, and the rest of the metabolism, in just about the most efficient way possible (exception is heavy bag work or pad work, that's even more taxing).

so most of the things IlliniDave wants to be doing in old age, and which sound suspiciously like what Glassman defines as "the general skill of fitness", 7Wannabe5 is already doing, having built it into her lifestyle. there are probably a few things that are missing, but it sounds like she's actively looking out for what she's missing and finding solutions.

the typical thing office humans miss are squatting, sitting and standing up from the ground, and overhead lifting. the gardening seems to take care of the former, not sure about the latter. if 7Wannabe5 just lifts something moderately heavy (20lbs) overhead once a week, and it's easy, then overhead mobility is likely fine. no need to learn push press or split jerks, although they're mighty fun.

CrossFit is still awesome. it just does what it claims to do so well. and it does what many other systems claim to do much better than those do. but it's a huge time commitment, probably overkill for most people, and it's usually quite expensive. membership often $100+/mo, initial investment for own gym can approach $1,000 easily. that's not a lot compared to the cost of hip replacement or dying 5 years early because of a fall, but it's a lot compared to push-ups and bodyweight squats, which prevent both of these things just as well.

the jury is also still out on the topic if CrossFit is overtraining in terms of longevity/old age health. it's a lot of volume, even compared to most other workout systems/sports. CrossFitters are burning the candle hard from all kinds of ends, that's their goal. brute isn't convinced this is bad in the long term, but he wouldn't be surprised, either.

[IlliniDave]

BRUTE,

Crossfit defines 10 physical skills that are part of fitness: speed, strength, coordination, stamina, endurance, power, flexibility, agility, balance, and accuracy.

http://library.crossfit.com/free/pdf/CFJ-trial.pdf

When I get to the ER phase of life I plan to do a lot of wilderness canoe camping and hiking (paddling, heavy pack, canoe overhead, climbing hills under load, rugged trails, etc.) so the things I listed are tied specifically to that, but it's very easy to see where Crossfit addresses those needs to a degree and will allow me to go into the wild reasonably prepared rather than the riskier approach of building my fitness in situ. I'll be in an area with bears, wolves, and cougars; so I threw in running and throwing too, as if they would do any good

As an older former/soon to be returning Crossfitter I've thought about the over-training aspect because at the peak of my entusiasm it did begin to wear me down--just couldn't keep up with my younger friends. I think the responsibility there is on the older athlete to pay attention to their body and regulate their behavior. As you know scaling of workouts is commonplace and encouraged. My plan on my return is to rigidly stick to three days a week of one < 1 hour workout. That should keep me moving without grinding me into the ground, and isn't a huge demand on my time. The cost is definitely a main disadvantage, but like you implied, it's a lot cheaper than having to pay someone to help me up off the toilet when I'm old.