How to negotiate part time work? (When currently full time salaried)

[C40]

This is a continuation of the "Should I quit now or keep working" thread, but I wanted to start another thread with another title to focus on this specific subject.

For background: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7785

Very short background:
- I've finished the van I've been building that I expect to live in for at least a couple years while I travel around the U.S. and to a lot of outdoor/adventure stuff.
- My house sale closing is in a couple days
- I was planning to send my boss a letter of resignation right after house closing. But now I'm wondering if I should keep working for a while. (For more details on how this would work out, see the other thread linked above)


I do feel like the reasonable thing to do is to keep working and see how I like it. When I was previously thinking about continuing work while living in the van, I was thinking about 'home basing' in cities in the eastern half of the US because flights to the cities where I work would be faster and cheaper. But the western US is much better for what I want to do. So today I looked at cities in the west and checked what the flights were like going to my work cities (they'll take significantly longer), and I checked distances from those airports to national forest/parks/etc. The prospects as far as outdoor areas are much, much, much better. There are a variety of cities that would probably work well (off memory: Denver, Boise, Spokane, Portland, San Fransisco, Sacramento, Los Angeles, +probably San Diego, Vegas, Phoenix, Albuquerque)

The main thing I would not like about continuing to work is having to go back and forth from the airport every week. The other bad thing is that my travel days would get much longer. Right now, it only takes me half the day to get to a work city, and I don't do any other work that day other than traveling. If/when I go out west, it will take full days, and I will loose much of my current wonderful work schedule and normal 3+ day weekends.

So, what I would really like is to work just 2 weeks per month. That would give me a 2-week stretch to go out and explore and relax in the way that I'd like to, and then I'd work for the other 2 weeks. My job is one where this is possible. I currently support 5 factories. I could start supporting just 3 factories and only go back for the St Louis office week every other month instead of every month. That would put me at about 2 weeks of work per month. My schedule could look like this:



There are other ways that 2 weeks per month could work. One other option is for me to keep all 5 factories, but go to them less frequently.

Then the question becomes: how to arrange this? Part-time work is very, very rare at my employer. One of my old co-workers wanted to go part time and/or travel less. She quit, and then a month or two later got a contract position to work 2-3 days a week in St Louis. I've emailed her asking her to call me to give me advice on this.

I'm pretty sure if I just ask my boss to go part time, he'll tell me we can't do it. He'll say that the timing is really bad since we have big goals for this year - that they need my help for them. He might say "let's get through this year and then try to figure something out early next year"). I don't like ultimatums and I don't like negotiating in negative ways, but I do wonder if the most likely way to get part time work starts with me giving him a letter of resignation. If it's clear that I'll quit instead of working full-time the rest of the year, the big goals for this year now make me working part time look a lot better than being gone entirely.

What advice can you share on negotiating this kind of change?

[Tyler9000]

I don't like ultimatums and I don't like negotiating in negative ways, but I do wonder if the most likely way to get part time work starts with me giving him a letter of resignation. If it's clear that I'll quit instead of working full-time the rest of the year, the big goals for this year now make me working part time look a lot better than being gone entirely.

When I left my job I strongly considered asking to work three days a week but ultimately decided to make a clean cut. Part of it was about erring towards confidence rather than half-measures. Part was probably fear of how they would respond. And most was just fully embracing freedom for a while to finally experience life without a job. I don't regret my choice.

A year later they welcomed me back at my three days a week. In retrospect I bet they would have been accommodating if I had originally asked for it, but I think the dynamic would be different than it is now. There's a sense that I'm coming back because I like it rather than pulling away because I don't.

But that's just me, and you may feel different. IMHO, if working two weeks a month is really what you want and completely quitting is your second choice then just say so. Don't think of it as an ultimatum but an honest negotiation among peers of equal right to refuse. Answer all questions honestly (without being smug about your personal flexibility), and be clear you're not bluffing. If they want to talk about a specific transition date, be open to it. And if they refuse altogether, thank them for considering it, hand in your resignation, and tell them to feel free to call if they reconsider later as you are very serious about enjoying working there under the terms you discussed.

You never get what you don't ask for.

One other thought -- selling a house and moving into a van is a massive change. Maybe you can give it just a little time before addressing the job situation. Let things settle for a few weeks or months, and maybe the path forward will be a little more obvious.

[C40]

Thanks Tyler, that is helpful.

What I desire, in order, is:
- Part time, 2 weeks per month
- Quit entirely
- Keep working

I've revised my resignation letter to include an offer to work part time in order to support the big goals we currently have at work. I'm thinking I'll probably send that and hope that I can work out a part time arrangement. The good part of doing it this way is it removes the option of me continuing to work full time. So my company doesn't get to choose between me working full time or part time (of course, they would prefer part time) but rather between me being gone entirely and working part time (they might prefer my help part time, for a while at least)

Starting with the resignation letter is a bit of a gamble, but it will speed up the request and negotiation for part time work. I'd rather not keep working, so even if I don't get the part-time work that I want, I get something I want more than to keep working.

[C40]

I guess one thing I was wondering about while composing the offer of part-time work, is whether I should present it entirely clear as something I really really want, or offer it because I'd like to help with their big goals. I phrased it more along the lines of the latter (helping them).

I wrote:

I know we have big goals this year for ABC. I'd be very happy to provide part-time support to help achieve that. I’d prefer that over stopping work entirely. If you wish to set up a part time arrangement, I‘d be open to delaying my last full-time working day while we sort out the details.

(I added the "I'd prefer that over stopping work entirely" sentence when I wanted to make sure to show that I specifically want that.. I'm thinking I may remove that and either put it in the email that I attach the resignation letter or tell that to my boss when he calls me after reading it)

[jennypenny]

Why are you only hinting that you'd like part time work? Do you think that approach will work better?

I guess I'm wondering why you don't say straight out that you are reducing your work hours to pursue other interests, but would like to work out a part time arrangement and would be willing to continue full time while the details were worked out. You could add that you'd like to work PT to help support the big projects you mentioned. Then conclude by saying if a part time position isn't possible, then your final day will be X.

I could be way off base though. I tend to be too direct with people.

[C40]

That's a good point. I'll probably re-write it again that way

[mfi]

Would your former coworker who quit or someone else/new be interested in job sharing your position 50-50? That way the company gets their preference of full-time support and you get your first preference of part-time work.

[BRUTE]

how about suggesting "flexible consulting" work instead of saying "part-time" or "full-time"? this way, C40 would potentially be working as much as the company needed him and he wanted to, without the exact number of hours being set in advance.

brute would definitely start with an explanation and C40s ultimate goals. just saying "give C40 part time or he will quit" feels a bit like blackmail.

how about this:
- due to family and personal reasons, C40 desires flexibility in the use of his time and personal projects (helps to have something concrete to fall back on, like the breakup, van traveling, traveling in general, whatever)
- C40 understands how important ABC is for the company, and has every intention to do his part
- to find a solution that works best for both the company and C40, maybe a more flexible consulting relationship makes sense
- the company would tell C40 where his help would be most needed/productive over the next X weeks/months, and C40 lets the company know what type of schedule he could offer to consult on in that timeframe

since C40 wouldn't mind quitting, there's really not much to lose. in the beginning, due to the "personal projects", he could reasonably argue for part-time. if he decides later he actually misses his job, he could inform the company that he now has more time available again. the only benefit of an employee relationship are the social/healthcare benefits. C40 is FI, so he doesn't really need those. therefore, contracting is probably a better fit in any case.

[C40]

Ok, that's more good advice..

What I'm thinking of doing right now is talking to my boss on the phone tomorrow to explain some of my situation. I have shared some family stuff with him already, and I will expand on that (and, inflate just a little), plus some stuff about myself (need to free up time to do certain things while I'm still young). I think I'll basically tell him that I cannot keep working full time - that it's not an option - and try to start working out a part time/consulting arrangement. I think he will like this better and won't feel as blindsided as emailing him a resignation letter.

I just want to make sure that if I'm going to wait on him to do something, that I instill a sense of urgency and he gets right on it. If the decision isn't an immediate "no" and I let it take it's natural time to be made, it could drag on for months. I'll let him know that we need to come to a general decision very quickly (within 1-2 weeks) and that, if that decision is a yes, I could keep working full time for a bit while we sort out the exact details.

[BRUTE]

I just want to make sure that if I'm going to wait on him to do something, that I instill a sense of urgency and he gets right on it.

C40 could tell his boss about the upcoming cross-country van trip he has planned with his close friend/family member. which is probably something C40 would like to do anyway, right?

[rube]

No further advise from me, but want to wish you good luck!

[thrifty++]

I think you could be dropping some leverage by resigning first and could possibly also make them feel too rushed that it is too hard for them to find a workaround for you making it harder for them to agree.

Another option could be to enter a negotiation and let them know that you are thinking about resigning to do x, y and z which are really important to you, and discuss your hope for part time work and let them know you will probably look at resigning if it cant work out due to the importance of x, y z to you. Might pay to give some indication of why xyz is important to you so that they understand why you are taking it so seriously and so that your suggestion of resigning doesnt look whimsical or unreasonable. Also then think of all the problems they might have with your request and the impact on your employer then think of ways your part time plan could work to address those matters. Be prepared to discuss and set out such solutions. Also if there are any benefits to your plan to the employer could submit those as well, eg still completing x projects at half the salary etc.

[C40]

Ok, I spoke with my boss on the phone last night. I basically did what Brute and Thrifty described. The conversation went really well. He's going to start talking to the necessary people at work. I'll share more details this week on how I presented it to him. I'm not sure at all whether a part time arrangement will work out. I wouldn't give it more than a 50% chance. My boss would be fully accommodating, but his boss and/or HR may not be.

[cmonkey]

I missed this entire conversation until now, but my thought is that the part time work would just get in the way of doing other things you want to do, constantly nagging at the back of my mind. Work is work no matter how much you do. The analogy to a dog on a leash is totally applicable, its still a leash even if you double the length. The thought of having a vast sea of time in front of me with no commitments is extremely intoxicating.

It seems the only motivation for part-time work is to just have more of a financial buffer? You are very much in the clear of being FI, especially if you actively engage your finances by tracking everything and just being mindful of spending.

I would try to project yourself into the future for both scenarios (5, 10, 20 years) and ask yourself if you made the right decision. Life is short!

[BRUTE]

@cmonkey:

in brute's experience, different humans have degrees of comfort with the idea of FI. brute himself never had problems with boredom or identity loss when not working, but he knows many people who do. in fact, brute would suggest the majority of all people who currently work have trouble imagining a life without work.

so brute believes it's totally valid to take the step ladder approach and get a longer leash first. if the increased freedom feels nice, a human can always still quit or take on more freedoms. if it's still outside of the comfort zone, there's a fallback.

[Tyler9000]

Ok, I spoke with my boss on the phone last night. I basically did what Brute and Thrifty described. The conversation went really well.

Nice work! No matter how it works out in the short term, you should feel good about how you handled it and confident that you're on the right path.

[C40]

So, here's what I did:

Preface - I had actually been setting myself up for this for quite some time. I sort of forgot about the seeds I've been planting. I wasn't intending to use them in this way, and I had been stressed out about my house sale and the overall decision of quitting or not.

While I was building the van, I expected to finish it before I reached my retirement net worth target. I expected I would sell my house and live in the van and travel around the country while still working. As for work, this would mean that for the one week I spend back in St Louis, I would be traveling to St Louis from somewhere else (and expensing the flights, hotel, rental car, and food). I was nervous at first that my boss wouldn't accept that. The company had paid for me to relocate to St Louis so one would expect I wouldn't need to expense travel when I work in St Louis. Well, the relocation agreement only said I needed to stay there and keep working for one year. Then, most of the other people doing my same job turned over, and now they live outside of St Louis and travel during those St Louis weeks.

[There are more details to the stuff below, and I was typing them in initially, but I don't want to share that many details, so I will keep it pretty simple]

While I was building the van, I had told my coworkers about a family member's condition. When I spoke with my boss on Monday, I used that as the reason I cannot continue working full time. I said that I need the time to help them out and go on a big life adventure with them, and that if they don't do this now, they aren't sure whether they'll be able to later. This was a very convincing reason as it provides a self-less reason for my request***, and it includes urgency: there can be no waiting and seeing. I made it clear that I was fully committed to doing this and that there's no way I can continue working full time. I also said that I would like to keep working some and would like to help with the company's big goals this year. I laid out an example where I could work 50% of the time but still provide 60% of the support that I currently do. I didn't specifically say that I would expect to go back to full-time work after a period. My company would probably expect that to be the desired outcome for me and them both. But my boss does understand that there's uncertainty in what I'll be able to do in the future and that it may come to be that I realize the 2 weeks a month isn't going to work and I quit entirely.

He was impressed, and had great respect for me being so ready to help a family member. He even brought up religion and said it is a very good Christian thing to do. He sounded 100% supportive of the change. He said he would talk with HR and his boss and seemed quite hopeful that he could arrange this. Absolutely no commitment as of now - but seemed genuine that he would try to make it happen. I set up a deadline to have a decision (but not necessarily all the details) worked out by the end of next week.

I'll check in with him later this week. I'd put the chance of it working out at less than 50%.

I feel a bit strange about stretching the truth so much. My family member really does have that condition and is really is making a lot of life changes including trying to set himself up for what I said is happening. But it's a total lie to say that is the main reason I'm asking for part time. I feel some guilt, but I also know that if I shared the truth it would be greatly misunderstood and would not carry enough weight for my request to happen.

*** It is an interesting part of human behavior that me making this huge request at work is seen so differently depending on the details of the reason. If I'd said that it was just to allow myself to do something big and adventurous, it would be nowhere near as compelling as me helping another person do something big and adventurous. One might be considered selfish and the other noble.

[BRUTE]

good

[RealPerson]

So, here's what I did:
But it's a total lie to say that is the main reason I'm asking for part time. I feel some guilt, but I also know that if I shared the truth it would be greatly misunderstood and would not carry enough weight for my request to happen.

You created a sense of urgency, which is what you needed to do in this situation. Kind of like "the sale ends tomorrow" urgency to get you to buy stuff. I think that is totally fine to do, because your employer would probably push this decision off if they could. You are simply facilitating a quick decision, which is in your best interest.

As to the motivation for retiring, that is your personal business in all honesty. The altruistic approach is an emotional appeal to help your employer work through a decision you are going to make in any event.

Neither of these issues changes the fundamentals. You would quit very soon if they won't work with you. You are simply providing context. Your employer won't agree to part time if that does not work for them, regardless of your reason for requesting this. No harm done! Great job so far. I hope it works out.