Law School or Not?

[inchicago]

I had originally posted this in my journal, but didn't get any replies so this seems to be a better place to get folks thoughts on the following:

I’m seriously considering trying to attend law school in 2017. Now, I don’t really want to do back to school and deal with all that, but I feel like I need a real skill. The other reason is I may have significant help paying for it. I would really like to do real estate closings and use a lot of the knowledge for myself in my own business. Maybe I could even have a small firm or just do it myself. I would have to attend school part-time since I have to keep a job currently. The two areas I would consider would be real estate transactions and bankruptcy protection/filings.

I've been doing a little research and it doesn't seem like the legal freelance gigs are falling out of the air.

My current plan is to stay at my current job until 2028 (if I can handle it) to collect the pension averaging about $50k+/per year. Now, I sure don't want to work that long, but I feel like that is a good way to secure retirement, plus, I'll be young enough to enjoy the rest of my life (in my early 50s) and hopefully never have to worry about money ever again.

One of the things with law school is that I feel I could have the knowledge and skills to represent myself (and hopefully the contacts), if I ever needed to. I know there are lots of ways to learn the law without going to school but to have the JD after my name would help me feel much better in this ridiculously legalized world we live in, which has been designed to screw the little guy over at every turn.

Thoughts anyone?

[ether]

Do it!
You'll be much better informed than 90% of law students who think law is just the logical thing to after a history or english degree!
You found your expertise, and we all know we need more pro-consumer lawyers especially in bankruptcy and real estate.
You're doing humanity a favor and I think you'll enjoy it!

[Dragline]

I'm a lawyer. It has worked out quite well for me, but not for a lot of other people I know. It is typically a long-term commitment.

You should not do this unless you have a plan to pay for it. Which means either attending somewhere with extremely low tuition or committing a good portion of your time after law school to paying for it. It could be many years. It could be even more if you pay for an expensive law school that is not well-credentialed.

You should listen to the LST podcasts about what lawyers really do. You will find them here: http://www.lstradio.com/iatl/#episodes

Many people have extremely unrealistic ideas about the pros and cons of law school. Having JD after your name is about your ego. It will not make you particularly special. Nobody else really cares.

Treat it like going to a trade school. And caveat emptor if you go to an expensive school without a good track record for its graduates. You could be mortgaging your future.

[inchicago]

Hi Dragline. Thanks a lot for your honest opinion. I do agree the JD is an ego thing. For me, it's really more of a now I have this knowledge thing and takes the fear I have of lawyers away. But that's my own issue.

Do you do any sort of freelance work and have you found you get enough of this work to make it a part-time job?

Regarding paying for it: I have a relative who has offered to pay for it. That person being a lawyer and is thrilled someone else might be a lawyer in the family.

[Did]

hi being a lawyer or not has been discussed twice at least in the past year so you might want to look at those threads. freelancing is difficult in my experience, as is working remotely (ie location independence). I speak from experience. Part time work is very possible once you have experience, but expect to go into the office at least some of the time.

[inchicago]

@ether: Thanks for the response! I like your positivity.

@did: I will check out those other threads.

@Dragline: I'm thinking you are more and more right about the JD being about ego, in my case, as well.

I've got a few things to think about.

Thanks everyone!

[jacob]

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[inchicago]

Thanks Jacob. Very helpful.

From everything I've read here and elsewhere and from those whom I've spoken with:

Pros
1. knowledge gained
2. potential of being able to represent yourself in lawsuits or other legal matters (although no guarantee since it could be a whole other field of law that you are not familiar with)
3. new job prospects
4. good to learn a particular area of the law for a specific business that you may have

Cons
1. expensive
2. stressful (I'm looking to reduce stress as much as humanly possible.)
3. time-consuming
4. salary is mediocre (IMO, since I already make over $80k)
5. not a lot of freelance/contract work
6. too many areas of law to fully represent yourself in lawsuits or other legal matters

While my law school degree expense would most likely be fully covered, my time commitment would not be and it seems from everything I've read and heard over the last couple of weeks that I would be better off studying the area of law that I need and then if I needed an attorney, purchasing those services.

Being that I'm very, very close to 40yo, I don't have the luxury of time. I can't afford to spend anymore time on things that are not going to get me closer to retirement. I think I'm probably better off working on my real estate business/investing and maybe using my administrative skills to do some freelance work, although the competition from those residing internationally is steep since they charge far cheaper rates than I would be able to.

I always enjoy getting opinions from this forum as people are above the normal intelligence level.

[Dragline]

I always enjoy getting opinions from this forum as people are above the normal intelligence level.

We're actually just a collection of bots. Jacob is the only human. He receives psychic messages from his dog about what kind of bot to program next.

[JamesR]

My impression from a couple of guys that got their law degree is that it's really hard to get hired as a lawyer if you have gaps in your work history. Might be less tolerant of weird work histories or taking time off. But you weren't even aiming for a lawyer job so nevermind

[inchicago]

We're actually just a collection of bots. Jacob is the only human. He receives psychic messages from his dog about what kind of bot to program next.

That Jacob is an absolute genius then!

[inchicago]

@JamesR I have no gaps in my resume since 1997, but if I were applying for a lawyer job, right now the experience would be 0%. I couldn't even twist my job description around in the slightest to get around that one.

[tylerrr]

I would not.

I know a lot of attorneys and don't like most of them because they are fundamentally dishonest and greedy from my experience. Of course, there are exceptions.

In addition, my friends who are attorneys have uniformly complained about being completely overworked and several of them ditched private practice for Federal or other government positions so they could actually have a life outside of work.

In addition, job security is no longer what it used to be as an attorney. I considered law school years ago too.

[SimpleLife]

Thanks Jacob. Very helpful.

From everything I've read here and elsewhere and from those whom I've spoken with:

Pros
1. knowledge gained
2. potential of being able to represent yourself in lawsuits or other legal matters (although no guarantee since it could be a whole other field of law that you are not familiar with)
3. new job prospects
4. good to learn a particular area of the law for a specific business that you may have

Cons
1. expensive
2. stressful (I'm looking to reduce stress as much as humanly possible.)
3. time-consuming
4. salary is mediocre (IMO, since I already make over $80k)
5. not a lot of freelance/contract work
6. too many areas of law to fully represent yourself in lawsuits or other legal matters

While my law school degree expense would most likely be fully covered, my time commitment would not be and it seems from everything I've read and heard over the last couple of weeks that I would be better off studying the area of law that I need and then if I needed an attorney, purchasing those services.

Being that I'm very, very close to 40yo, I don't have the luxury of time. I can't afford to spend anymore time on things that are not going to get me closer to retirement. I think I'm probably better off working on my real estate business/investing and maybe using my administrative skills to do some freelance work, although the competition from those residing internationally is steep since they charge far cheaper rates than I would be able to.

I always enjoy getting opinions from this forum as people are above the normal intelligence level.

Dude, I'm the guy in the opportunity cost of law school thread Jacob linked to. How funny that you are a high income earner and into real estate, and roughly the same age. Personally I know where you're coming from, the world has become ridiculous and those who can represent themselves in legal matters hold an advantage. But yes, neither of us is young. And as you saw in my thread, I calculated the opportunity cost of expenses, lost income, lost ability to invest that income and compound returns for a while, etc. I can make more money as an investor part time and keep building my wealth than I can as a lawyer unless I win some landmark personal injury case. And as you said, I too have considered that the law is so complex, that it is nearly impossible to represent yourself in all practice areas. You're really better off hiring an attorney who specializes in whatever problem you are having.

You don't have to be an attorney to represent yourself in court. Google the guy who got sued for 30K for selling a printer on Craigslist. He got sued by a guy who has filed dozens of similar lawsuits in an attempt to collect ridiculous sums of money (and has never won mind you, probably because it's obvious he is a scammer when he asked for 600K in damages for a "broken" printer in several different suits with several different defendants). The suit started in small claims court but went all the way to the supreme court.

Anyways. At the end of the day, it's about freedom from those who want to harm you without cause. But the real freedom is not in being an attorney. Just look on youtube and you see Attorneys civil rights being violated and arrested for no reason, then suing and losing the lawsuit. It happens. The legal system, does not appear to be what it seems to most of us. The real freedom is in having the resources to influence your environment with cash. Lot's of cash. Bill Gates and the like can buy their way out of any problem far more effectively than a lawyer can try to argue a case that is heavily stacked against you.

For what it's worth, I still have not decided on law school. Though I'm more heavily considering how I can get even richer, because at the end of the day, I sleep fairly well because I'm not broke like I used to be, I have money to hire attorneys if needed; Harvard and Yale educated Attorneys...Then again, as George Zimmerman found out, legal defense can get expensive; 2.5 million expensive...Makes me wonder if one is not just better off buying their own 100 acre tract in the middle of nowhere so they can be left to live in peace. Because after all, my goal in life is not to hem other people up or defend myself in court constantly. It's to be happy. And being in court doesn't sound happy to me. Being on a beach with a bunch of smoking hot women drinking a Chelada is happy to me...

[inchicago]

I like the way you think SimpleLife. All except maybe the hot women, since I’m a Dudette and not into such things.

Sadly, I’ve only “woken up” recently and began my journey to FI. No use crying over spilt milk, though, since that’s not very productive. I agree with you 100% that money is what talks. It seems to be the dominant language of the world, and with it, you can buy your way out of almost anything.

I saw the story about the guy and the printer, and that is the kind of stuff that really bothers me and made me seriously think about becoming a lawyer so I could deal with it. I feel sad for the guy who sold the printer that had to go through all this. This shouldn’t even be allowed. The first time it was thrown out of court should have been the last time. If I were the printer seller, I would have counter sued that guy for emotional distress and time wasted.

I’ve been learning some things about the system and different ways to research the law and relevant cases.

I’ve read a lot of different things on the forums about high rates of drug abuse and suicide amongst lawyers and very, very high student debt. Something I’m certainly not interested in.

I’m thinking more and more about the idea of owning land in the middle of nowhere and just being left alone. In fact, that sounds heavenly after being in this city and hearing the news about all the problems in the world today.

[denise]

You also have to consider technology, for example some areas of law and paralegals, have already been replaced with computer software, much like taxes. You'd have to become highly specialized, and make sure your specialization cannot soon be taken over by tech. You would also have to compete in your chosen field with youngsters who are desperately trying to pay off debt, as law school can cost $200k. I went to grad school for civil engineering and urban planning and it's paying off. I have friends who became lawyers, one in labor law, and the other in a different specialization. They both live in expensive cities; Washington DC and NYC. They love what they do, but won't be retiring anytime soon. I see this is mostly for knowledge for you, so I would suggest just learning the law on your own at the library or via free stuff online. I personally don't think it's worth it to waste time and money on law school, especially since you already have a lucrative career. Although, I plan on reaching FIRE with $1.3 million in 13 years, at the age of 45, and then considering going for PhD if I can get someone else to pay for it, so it all depends on why you want to do it, and how beneficial it is!

[inchicago]

Thanks for your comments denise. Technology is replacing quite a few jobs. That's one reason I believe our educational system here in the U.S. is a bit on the archaic side. People are not being trained for real world jobs or to go into their own business. Plus, the majority of jobs, according to several sources, will be more gig-types and contract versus the traditional 9-5. This will take a new way of thinking. I have decided to study it on my own and focus more on data analytics now.

[SimpleLife]

Thanks for your comments denise. Technology is replacing quite a few jobs. That's one reason I believe our educational system here in the U.S. is a bit on the archaic side. People are not being trained for real world jobs or to go into their own business. Plus, the majority of jobs, according to several sources, will be more gig-types and contract versus the traditional 9-5. This will take a new way of thinking. I have decided to study it on my own and focus more on data analytics now.

Yeah, the easy document setups for anything from a Will to Trusts are basically automated web based wizards now. Basically the money will be either in ambulance chasing, corporate, or any kind of trial.

Also, I used to think that being a lawyer meant you have power. Turns out the subjective interpretation of a human with bias (a Judge) will decide the fate of your case. The recent interpretations of the constitution by the 9th circuit as well as the supreme court left a lot of people scratching their heads, myself included. Even some of the Justices wrote scathing dissents. The fact that they are usually divided on cases is telling; if it was not a matter of subjective opinion, why would it not be unanimous?

As such, I think while being a lawyer is still generally useful, it's not the slam dunk I thought it was to fight injustice. Money is much better, as you can buy anyone or anything you want OR you can relocate without blinking, to a locale where there is not as much injustice.

[Andre900]

One of the few good career decisions I made was to drop out of the part-time law program after one year at the New England School of Law in 1987.