Retraining in a new trade?

Anything to do with the traditional world of get a degree, get a job as well as its alternatives
tonyedgecombe
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Re: Retraining in a new trade?

Post by tonyedgecombe »

SimpleLife wrote:If you tried it and didn't make it or see most people fail, then nevermind.
That was cheap, as I said I have had a long career in IT.
SimpleLife wrote:It is not for everyone, otherwise everyone would be doing it.
This is why I'm not sure it's good advice, the people who are capable are most likely well aware of that, for the rest any expectation of a high salary is probably unreasonable.

thrifty++
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Re: Retraining in a new trade?

Post by thrifty++ »

Wow that's pretty awesome that you are on such a massive salary and taught yourself from home. No education costs then.

Another option to get into IT where I am is to start out at a entry level help desk job. Starts usually on about 36k and lots of opportunities to progress within IT from there. Those jobs are easy to get (there are lots of them) if you have a degree (of any sort), a brain, and demonstrate eagerness.

jacob
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Re: Retraining in a new trade?

Post by jacob »

tonyedgecombe wrote: This is why I'm not sure it's good advice, the people who are capable are most likely well aware of that, for the rest any expectation of a high salary is probably unreasonable.
+1

First,

Advice should be judged on several merits.

Is it applicable to the full population or only a part of it? (ERE doesn't qualify because it seems to require above average intelligence to apply)
Is it only applicable to a part of the full population? (MMM doesn't qualify because it requires upper class income levels)
Are we judging the advice from the outcome of a population sample that is too small? (4HW doesn't qualify, because most muses fail to provide)

Second,

Advice is like loans. Those who can most readily apply it probably don't need it.

jacob
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Re: Retraining in a new trade?

Post by jacob »

SimpleLife wrote:Any interest in IT work? You can teach yourself online and get a high paying job entry level if you can demostrate some knowledge.
Question is if this still holds and how guaranteed this strategy is for the random person attempting it.

For example, just a couple of years ago you could get a low six-fig job in a BFE shale oil patch if you could demonstrate the ability to drive an F-350 (and an ability to relocate to said oil patch). It was open to pretty much anyone with a driver's license. The cause and resulting effect was almost guaranteed. Ditto joining some private security company in a ME war zone. Also, HTML coding in the mid 1990s. Now, not so much anymore.

I suspect that "demonstrating some knowledge"=>high salary only holds briefly and in a few fields. Only available for very fast movers and very fast adapters.---Which is a skill in its on. Or maybe more of a decision/lifestyle/attitude than an actual skill.

While I have no doubt that a few will rise fast due to being either high achieving, lucky, or politically savvy, what's the current MEDIAN starting salary for someone with an associates or bachelor degree in "computer stuff" or alternatively a stint at some code academy or the skill to build an app with a GUI. Like, how does "some knowledge" help anyone compete against China or Indian outsourcing unless they also have "something else".

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Slevin
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Re: Retraining in a new trade?

Post by Slevin »

SimpleLife wrote:So what job industry are you in then? Finance? Software "engineering" is IT work. Also, engineers are usually state licensed. The term is over used. Business Insider had a great article about this recently. Engineers have educational and licensure requirements. Just because one can code HTML doesn't make them an engineer, lol. Title inflation and snobbery at it's best. Even garbage men are now "Sanitation Engineers".
Agreed the term is over used. Currently back end, but I am transitioning into DevOps (but not the IT side, the software development side). Will PM you the industry. Undergraduate degree was in physics. Buddies I know that headed that way do full stack and back end dev mostly.

On the subject of the educational and licensure requirements for engineers, I'm fully aware of them and apparently think much less of them than you do. I just got out of college and when I was there I helped a handful of kids study for the FE exams. If you want to argue about any specifics of them, let me know.

BRUTE
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Re: Retraining in a new trade?

Post by BRUTE »

jacob wrote:ERE doesn't qualify because it seems to require above average intelligence to apply
brute is not sure it's intelligence. it seems more a tolerance of demonstrating anti-social behavior and ability to reject social pressure.

themodernchap
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Re: Retraining in a new trade?

Post by themodernchap »

SimpleLife wrote:Any interest in IT work? You can teach yourself online and get a high paying job entry level if you can demostrate some knowledge.
If I am honest, no. I know there is a lot of money to be made in it, and I know I could learn to do it. I was accepted onto a conversion masters which would give me an MSc in Software Engineering a few years ago but I didn't do it because I just don't have the interest. I would really like to eventually have a job which isn't a "desk job" because I dislike sitting inside all day in overheated offices. My girlfriend's brother does capacity / resiliance testing in London and makes an incredible wage for his age but he loves computers and coding and so on. Lots of my friends work in software architecture. One programmes automatic heart defibulators and is paid a kings ransom for it. Unfortunately it's just not for me.

Other than doing an apprenticeship / working as a mate and then doing an apprenticeship I can't see any viable ways into the trades. I will be speaking to my experienced electrician pal shortly to take him up on his offer of getting me out on site to build up more experience (which I will need to get a job for the apprenticeship).

I have considered the opperunity costs, and I know they are steep, however my job is temporary so assuming that I would continue to earn at my current level for the 4 years doesn't work for me. I was laid off twice last year, each time a temp here is laid off they are unemployed while waiting for a contract to come though, it's almost impossible to claim state benefits during that time, then they are on minimum wage for 12 weeks before their pay goes up to the same rate as the directly employed staff (if indeed they earn more than minimum wage that is.) Last year due to these kinds of exploitative hiring practices I earned only around £7500. It's hard to calculate oppertunity cost when your employement so so fickle.

BRUTE
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Re: Retraining in a new trade?

Post by BRUTE »

brute completely agrees with that. an opportunity cost of 7500/year isn't that big anyway. and it seems like electrician/trades in general are a great fit for themodernchap.

brute still recommends trying to find out if there's a quicker way into/through the apprenticeship, as themodernchap has said this model is made for 17 year olds with no responsibilities, which themodernchap isn't if brute remembers correctly. maybe there is a slightly faster way for people who're older? maybe there's government/union type people themodernchap could ask about this?

OrganicRain
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Re: Retraining in a new trade?

Post by OrganicRain »

I am laid off and on the cusp of FI - but might retrain into nursing (male mental health nurse)

themodernchap
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Re: Retraining in a new trade?

Post by themodernchap »

Bit of movement on this.

I will be getting my Construction Skills Register Card in early March, this will make it possible for me to go to active jobsites and assist with electrical work (but not actually do the terminations myself) and my friend has agreed to take me on at the weekends at least to let me build up some experience before going for apprenticeship jobs.

I've looked into it and unfortunately this is the only credible route into the trade. You can do diploma type things but I called a few companies and asked about them and they basically told me without several years experience these aren't worth the paper they are printed on. The message they keep giving me is that the trade is about what you can do, rather than what bits of paper you have to show for it.

I have to spend a little money on some safety gear but I already had some (hi vis vest for cycling for example) but I think this is a sound investment.

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Re: Retraining in a new trade?

Post by jacob »

themodernchap wrote:The message they keep giving me is that the trade is about what you can do, rather than what bits of paper you have to show for it.
It's always been about what you can do [because your job _is_ to do] but because of the widespread and recent policy to get everybody a piece of paper, employers/clients are wisening up to whether that piece of paper actually means anything. And because of the recent [seemingly global] "paper for everyone"-policy, it often doesn't. I fear that paper-issuers might have sunk themselves by printing too many diplomas.

These days, previously demonstrated work proficiency rules.

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