Do FIRE people need thicker skin?

[SimpleLife]

I notice that there are many, probably the majority, that want/wanted to FIRE because of the BS in the office, etc. Many people are ready to pull the trigger with what I would consider to be very low amounts of investments, 150K to 300K, because they can't stand the office idiocy. I feel their pain. But I sometimes wonder if our introversion isn't a weakness in the office. It seems that the dumbest and most extroverted people love their jobs. I had a subordinate that vomited incompetence and BS every time she spoke. She was a shining beacon of dumb. Most knew it and she knew that most knew it. Yet she kept the game going until she eventually got moved on. Now she is repeating the same things somewhere else. I've worked with someone like this in every company I've worked for.

If we build a thicker skin and keep working a bit longer to save/invest more money, isn't that better than letting idiots drive us out of the workforce early? Especially so if you have to go live extreme such as in a camper, living off noodles, no cell phone, etc. Almost seems like the idiots are winning by us leaving. Also, said idiots keep growing their wealth. The person above I'm referencing was technically incompetent, but between a two high earner income house hold and 80 years of work between them, they were savers and investors and had a boat load of money. It's just that they aquired it getting fired from one job after another (both of them, not surprisingly).

[tonyedgecombe]

Most jobs I had gave me very little autonomy, there seemed to be little purpose to the work and it wasn't often challenging. No matter how thick my skin it didn't make sense to stay in those sort of environments.

[Ego]

Almost seems like the idiots are winning by us leaving.

I guess I can't really see the person who continues to grind on at the office indefinitely as a winner. But I see your point. Part of the problem may be that quitting is equated with losing.

[GandK]

+1 to tonyedgecombe. There wasn't enough purpose for me. I loved my coworkers and I more or less liked my workplace, but the work itself wasn't important enough to suit me. So my quitting wasn't about the level of BS. It was more because I'm idealistic and persnickety.

That said, I know I could use thicker skin, so I don't think my experience in any way disproves your idea.

[Tyler9000]

I definitely don't want to belittle people's work stresses. They're very real, and I've experienced them myself. However, in my experience the more important characteristic to nurture is not thicker skin but a stronger spine. You don't have to retire altogether to learn how to set healthy boundaries and say "no". Learning to stand up for yourself and either create a good working environment where you are or proactively interview for another one that suits you is a lot more productive than just taking it and passive-aggressively planning your escape from the workplace altogether.

Continue to save and plan for ERE, but don't fall into the trap of believing you can't also be happy beforehand. Do both!

[tonyedgecombe]

You don't have to retire altogether to learn how to set healthy boundaries and say "no".

Just being in a strong financial position helps with this.

[IlliniDave]

In response to the subject question, my profound response would be: some do, some don't.

I'm in the apparent minority having the following attributes.

-I don't mind my job and what happens at work was not a major driver in my veering towards a FIRE path.
-I'm an optimist and tend to bet on life, meaning I am unmoved by the "I better act ASAP because I might die tomorrow," philosophy.
-To a degree I'm set in my ways and I don't see moving past a fugal ER to true ERE as an attractive option for me. Hence I'm conservative with sizing my accumulation target.

I don't know if my skin is thin or thick when it comes to my work life, I tend to avoid testing it's durability by not taking things personally/not being judgmental/not having expectations beyond the basic transaction (my time for money) regarding work.

I think some people can thrive really well on what to me would feel like a somewhat fragile FIRE. I'd hate to say they are wrong just because their goals wouldn't work for me. But I also wouldn't positively recommend to someone that they take a leap I'd have serious concerns about taking myself. About all I can do is wish them luck.

[jennypenny]

But I sometimes wonder if our introversion isn't a weakness in the office. It seems that the dumbest and most extroverted people love their jobs.

It's because extroverts get something out of the job that introverts don't -- social contact and companionship. It depends on the job of course, but an extrovert can love a job that they would otherwise hate just because they enjoy the atmosphere and the people on their team.

That extroverted happiness might also make them seem like a much better team member than you are giving them credit for because other extroverts are judging them on metrics that are probably different than yours. If you asked people if they'd rather have a team member who's supremely capable but a social dud, or one that's competent enough but lots of fun to work with, I bet most people would choose the latter. No one on this forum of course, but we're not normal.

[7Wannabe5]

I was already an adult with two children before I ever had a full-time corporate job, so it never struck me as meaningful or "real" enough to get upset over. Same thing happened when I attempted grad school after already running my own little business. Like studying surfing instead of actually surfing. Anyways, I am not a good corporate employee because unless I can constantly change my job description (which I did 6 times in 6 years), I tend to lapse into boredom, procrastination, malicious compliance, killing time riffling through garden porn, and annoying some of my co-workers who actually think it is important to do their job. But, I always got excellent work reviews and recommendations for promotions, mostly because I always showed up and never lost my temper or cried and came up with good suggestions at meetings because I like meetings because there are usually snacks. Mostly I just hate commuting, being stuck in a building, and not being able to make a pot of soup if/when I feel like making a pot of soup and I don't feel like making a spreadsheet. I think it would be great if people could just wander into any business and work for a couple hours and get paid.

[Dragline]

I think most people could use thicker skin on average.

OTOH, one of the reasons people come to this board is just to express frustrations, so it may not be indicative of overall skin thickness or scaliness.

Then again, I wouldn't blame you if you had to listen to this all day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7P4ZAhIPkM

[Did]

If I had quit early then I would not have the cash that gives me the ability to tell everyone to go fuck themselves. But my advice to my 30 year old self would be to do something different. My 30s are gone forever now...

[jacob]

Part of the problem may be that quitting is equated with losing.

I was raised to equate quitting with losing. In retrospect, there hasn't been a single instance where I hadn't wished I hadn't held on for as long as I did.

[1taskaday]

7Wannabe5,

That is just too funny...and the definition of a successful employee in a nutshell...

Never losing your temper(because you couldn't give a crap what happens and you will never have to clean up mess /fall-out anyway-that will be the person losing their temper)

Always turning up,because you are institutionalized and have no creative energy left to have anything more interesting to do outside of work."The Life-ers" I call them.

Loving time-sucking meetings because this is the real reason your at work,to waste time while doing nothing useful or else by being entertained by people going for each other's jugulars.

I watch it over and over again,the people who chat most and change NOTHING get all the promotions,(a vital attribute to being a manager).

The people that cause the most problems never want to retire and love work.They never find work stressful unless it interferes with their coffee break time-then you will hear them squeal "like rats set on fire".

This used to all blow my mind when I had to clear up their "messes",now that I don't,(changed my job),I find it hilarious and have become a "soap addict" of sorts waiting to see the next predictable workplace drama play out.

The funny thing about all this is that the most efficient effective workers often get classified as "not dedicated" and the people who screw up the most or stop any meaningful improvements are labelled the dedicated lot.

[FBeyer]

I notice that there are many, probably the majority, that want/wanted to FIRE because of the BS in the office, etc...

For me, I simply realized that I cannot stand doing the same thing for more than a few months at a time. My feelings about work very closely mirror 7W5's, except I fraggin' hate meetings. Meetings take time away from much more fun stuff.

...My 30s are gone forever now...

'same for my 20s, but they made me who I am today, and personally I think I'm pretty awesome.

... but an extrovert can love a job that they would otherwise hate just because they enjoy the atmosphere and the people on their team.

That extroverted happiness might also make them seem like a much better team member... No one on this forum of course, but we're not normal.

Including extroverts in an office often raises spirits. There are actual good reason to include them, because keeping spirits up is tremendously important to keeping sick days low.

The IN** s on ERE tend to equate extroversion with incompetence; stop it. You are committing a base rate fallacy. People who tend to mouth off will show their incompetence easily enough, people who are quiet about it hide their incompetence, but I posit that the rate of incompetence is equal among introverts and extroverts, only the E's advertise it more

Part of the problem may be that quitting is equated with losing.

I was raised to equate quitting with losing. In retrospect, there hasn't been a single instance where I hadn't wished I hadn't held on for as long as I did.

Until recently I made it a significant part of personality never to give up. It has brought me naught but frustration and stress.
Getting out of an abusive relationship is not considered bad, although it is technically still quitting, getting out of an abusive job is the same, but considered bad. The bad connotations are merely socially enforced by those too scared to leave, you said so yourself

Fuck 'em!

[7Wannabe5]

FBeyer said: Including extroverts in an office often raises spirits. There are actual good reason to include them, because keeping spirits up is tremendously important to keeping sick days low.

This. The reason I was highly valued during my tenure in corporate management was largely due to the fact that my borderline extroverted social personality type could be described as "the fun, calm Mom." So, anytime there is a situation that is roughly analogous to hot-tempered, authoritative, assertive, hard-azz Dad at the wheel of the car driving through a snowstorm trying to get to Spokane by sundown, and 3 kids squabbling over whose turn it is to use the toy in the back seat, I am the person you want in the passenger seat. This is something I was made directly aware of because I once applied for a job as the manager in charge of technology, and was told that there were a number of people who could handle the technology job, but I was needed for the human resources position. I have a standing job offer from a friend,who makes his living putting together groups of highly-skilled technical types for contract jobs, to be in charge of helping them all communicate with each other. My reaction to this offer is something along the lines of "Why don't I just slit open my wrist and put my hand in a bowl of warm water instead?" The reason why I feel this way is that I don't have enough ability to exert authority (adult masculine energy), so it is my experience that I will eventually be drained of both my calm (adult feminine energy), and my high-spirits (juvenile masculine energy) in that sort of situation.

[KevinW]

To the OP question: basically, "yes."

If we're serious about pursuing an Renaissance (Wo)Man ideal, we should be developing in all areas, including people skills and micro-politics. I think we tend to give up too easily when faced with social obstacles. For example, on the subjects of coping with office BS, unsupportive family members, national politics, and dealing with HOAs, consensus seems to form around avoiding the situation rather than overcoming it. But, when it comes to things like weight lifting, bicycling, DIY investing, cooking, home plumbing, etc., the consensus forms around being Extreme and summoning courage to do things that seems difficult at first.

I encourage folks to try exercising interpersonal muscles and learn how to hold your own in these sorts of socio-political scenarios.

For my part, I'd describe myself as a shy INTJ, but for a couple years I had a part time side gig as, essentially, a salesman. I was really terrible at first, but in time got to be "solid" (though I wouldn't say "good"). You'd be surprised how often it's useful to have the skills of a solid salesman. Sometimes you can solve a problem quickly with judicious use of persuasion or hard-sell. In the same way that sometimes you can solve a problem quickly by being a solid cook or handyman. Give it a try.

[Dragline]

T
For my part, I'd describe myself as a shy INTJ, but for a couple years I had a part time side gig as, essentially, a salesman. I was really terrible at first, but in time got to be "solid" (though I wouldn't say "good"). You'd be surprised how often it's useful to have the skills of a solid salesman. Sometimes you can solve a problem quickly with judicious use of persuasion or hard-sell. In the same way that sometimes you can solve a problem quickly by being a solid cook or handyman. Give it a try.

I agree. This is just another skill to be acquired, and you might never be great at it, but its not that difficult to become competent. And it translates well to many other situations.

I once had a job soliciting contributions door-to-door. You had to make a quota every week to keep the job and were paid extra if you did really well. I probably learned more about dealing with the real world in those three months than in most of college.

[steveo73]

I definitely don't want to belittle people's work stresses. They're very real, and I've experienced them myself. However, in my experience the more important characteristic to nurture is not thicker skin but a stronger spine. You don't have to retire altogether to learn how to set healthy boundaries and say "no". Learning to stand up for yourself and either create a good working environment where you are or proactively interview for another one that suits you is a lot more productive than just taking it and passive-aggressively planning your escape from the workplace altogether.

Continue to save and plan for ERE, but don't fall into the trap of believing you can't also be happy beforehand. Do both!

Lots of truth here. I had a bad year this year but a lot of it is my fault. I need to have healthier boundaries.

I'm also introverted but I've worked in numerous jobs that require extroverted skills namely sales and now a project manager. I don't think the line between being introverted and extroverted is so clear cut. The staff that report to me really like me as a manager though because I don't give a fuck. I tell them to take time off or to leave early. They were working on the weekend last year and not telling me because they know I wouldn't support it. Maybe I can relate to them more because I'm introverted and don't give a fuck.

[SimpleLife]

Very good posts by Kevin and Tyler. I agree in that standing up for myself at work has done huge wonders. I've always done this to some extent being an outspoken, assertive person, but as I've gotten older I do it more often as I've gained more experience on how to deal with these situations at work. I'm also in a far better financial position that I used to be, even just 3 years ago. I was doing way better than most people in the country, but now, I'm really not that worried about it. Between other income streams, savings, credentials, skills, I'll get another good paying job somewhere if something happens to the one I'm at. Although, my boss keeps me tied down (just got a raise to 153K, still working from home, all combined far above what I would normally get for my specialty in my area, etc.) so it's hard to leave.

[OldPro]

"The IN** s on ERE tend to equate extroversion with incompetence; stop it. You are committing a base rate fallacy. People who tend to mouth off will show their incompetence easily enough, people who are quiet about it hide their incompetence, but I posit that the rate of incompetence is equal among introverts and extroverts, only the E's advertise it more "

Agreed. As an extrovert, it is equally as easy for me to equate introverts as lacking in self-confidence.

Here are some of an extroverts favourite sayings:

'Step aside shallow water and let the deep sea roll'. Also phrased as, 'make way for the truck'.

'I could agree with you but then we would both be wrong'.

'Give me the wisdom to be patient and give it to me NOW'.

What I see introverts as saying is:

'Oh, I'll have to work my way cautiously around this obstacle and try to avoid offending anyone. Especially if I might sound un-pc'.

'I don't know if I can agree with that'.

'Patience is a virtue, I'll go slowly.'

Regarding the need for a thicker skin, it seems obvious to me which of the two may have a need for one and which doesn't. So it isn't FIRE people overall who need a thicker skin in my opinion. Maybe none even need a thicker skin, they simply have different approaches to things. There is always more than one road from A to B. It's just that mine is a better road of course.