Burnout

Anything to do with the traditional world of get a degree, get a job as well as its alternatives
jacob
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Re: Burnout

Post by jacob »

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... s-epidemic
Article wrote: [Five signs...]
  • You feel exhausted, with no energy to do anything. You might experience disturbed sleep, and some flu-like symptoms.
  • You have difficulties concentrating, and feel as if your mind is zoning out, going into a daze for hours on end.
  • You feel irritated and frustrated, often becoming self-critical.
  • Supermarkets and similar places begin to feel overwhelming – the lights are too bright and there is too much noise.
  • You feel detached from things you used to love.

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: Burnout

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

Pulling up this thread from a few years back because this is extremely timely for me. I've been dealing with Jacob's type 2 burnout for nearly two years now, and it's getting to the point of no return. I even thought I was going through Major Depressive Disorder for awhile, except all my problems completely vanish when I can get completely away from work for at least a week.

The problem I'm having is I'm both only 4 years into my career, but only 5 years away from ERE. Burnout is impacting my ability to find my way out of this because it doesn't even feel like I'm passionate about anything any more. Every job in my field feels like it'd be the same tedious bullshit.

Does anyone have any advice for coping with type 2 burnout so I feel like I can at least enjoy life outside of work again?

Jin+Guice
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Re: Burnout

Post by Jin+Guice »

I'll again make an argument for real happiness now over imagined happiness later. There is no person in this thread I would not advise to quit their job. If this were a forum for drug addicts I would never make an argument, but there is such a thing as too much delayed gratification. Most us are seeking a to save 35x annual expenses which translates into a high six figure or low seven figure net worth. It's easy to forget, THIS IS NOT A REQUIREMENT FOR A GOOD LIFE.

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Bankai
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Re: Burnout

Post by Bankai »

If you're 4/9 years into accumulation, I assume you already have a pretty sizeable stash of 5-10 years of expenses. Why not take some time off and recharge? You can take 6 months or a year, decompress and think if you want to go back to your old career or start a new path. Staying in a job that makes you miserable for another 5 years doesn't sound good and these things tend to get worse, not better, with time. As many people here concluded, it's better to start fixing your life now and not wait years until at some point in future money will solve all your problems. If a job is your limiting factor, start with changing this part of your life. It's better to be happy now and reach ERE/FI as a byproduct than to make it an ultimate goal and go through hell to reach it.

George the original one
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Re: Burnout

Post by George the original one »

You have a need/desire to continue accumulation. The current job has you burnt out. This is a recipe for job-hopping! Ideally with a short break in-between jobs to recharge your batteries.

Yes, the new job will likely mean BTDT, but at least it will be a new environment. On the bonus side, job-hopping usually entails a pay raise.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Burnout

Post by classical_Liberal »

Adding to the above, another benefit of taking a "sabbatical" is that if the problems a person is experiencing doesn't disappear with the job, clearly there are other issues. Sometimes that realization is worth a years worth of expenses in itself.

Stahlmann
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Re: Burnout

Post by Stahlmann »

The macrorisk is that you can burnout to such a degree in one area that it makes it hard to desire to even try something else... because a "that'll probably suck too" attitude has developed.

You feel exhausted, with no energy to do anything. You might experience disturbed sleep, and some flu-like symptoms.
You have difficulties concentrating, and feel as if your mind is zoning out, going into a daze for hours on end.
You feel irritated and frustrated, often becoming self-critical.
Supermarkets and similar places begin to feel overwhelming – the lights are too bright and there is too much noise.
You feel detached from things you used to love.
:shock: :shock: :shock:

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Jean
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Re: Burnout

Post by Jean »

I've been convinced by my short career that any form of work sucks, and that anyone pretending thé opposite is lying to himself.
Maybe it's similar to how mgtow think After a shitty relationship?

Édit: my french autocorrect made me blâme poor Antoine.
Last edited by Jean on Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Burnout

Post by classical_Liberal »

@Jean
:lol: you would say that. On the opposite end, I think some form of work or purpose is critical to life fulfillment.

I think one problem with hating work-for-other is not giving it enough time. Often, if you become really good at something, opportunities arise that can continually improve your ability to tailor your job into something you like. Maybe this is you Jean? :D

However, most people in ERE probably have the opposite problem. They stay somewhere too long. I think think this is because: a) we have the FI carrot dangling, so we put up with too much BS running after that carrot. b) We continually trade our job capital for more money instead of the better jobs above. The "b" is often because of "a". This is how some people can come to the conclusion that the idea of FI can really be harmful to a fulfilled life in some respects.

I can't emphasize enough the fact the all the OG's of the modern FIRE movement were at or near FI before they decided they didn't like their work. Everything we learn from them should be taken with that thought in context. None of them, including our dear leader here, have suggested that it's a good idea to be miserable for 5-10 years to reach FI.

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Jean
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Re: Burnout

Post by Jean »

I don't know, i gave it eleven year. Only thé last 20 months were payed, and i was supposed to write down things everyone already knew, while making some expériments (but carefully avoiding to learn anything New, so reviewer don't question us when we try to publish). All this to justify thé money we were getting from the national science foundation. Senior jobs looked like the same, but with more focus on asking for money.
More of it would have led to suicide or some radical action to cut gouvernement spending.

shemp
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Re: Burnout

Post by shemp »

classical_Liberal wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:42 pm
... None of them, including our dear leader here, have suggested that it's a good idea to be miserable for 5-10 years to reach FI.
At age 27, I deliberately volunteered for a highly paid but dead end maintenance computer programming job and stayed at it for 7 years to accumulate capital. Co-workers thought I had lost my mind to take such a dead end job, since I was very highly regarded for my skills. I wouldn't call those 7 years misery, since I had nights and weekends mostly free (I was called in after hours to fix emergencies maybe once every three months). And I was treated well by the managers because they were terrified I might quit and they'd never find a suitable replacement, especially since a security clearance was required.

In looking back, my initial exciting 5 years of work at the same corporation is the period I would not want to repeat. That excitement included lots stress and political infighting.

During the dead end 7 years, I counted every day to early retirement like a prisoner counting the days to end of his sentence. In retrospect, I think I made the right choice. There are not that many fulfilling jobs out there, so treating your work years like a prison sentence is often the best approach. A prison sentence which you can reduce by saving more, and where you can be left alone by the guards and other prisoners by doing some necessary but unpleasant task that no one else wants to do.

Fiddle
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Re: Burnout

Post by Fiddle »

Tbf I think alot comes down to the work that is being done and the expectations of others and yourself on your output.
I had burn out after several years and took some time out semi ERE style. After a few years I returned to the previous work in a lower paying role with alot less responsibility and alot more autonomy . I really like the work and would actually do it for free.... at the moment:)

ertyu
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Re: Burnout

Post by ertyu »

To me, it's one of those things: you're not happy doing it, but you'll be happy for having done it.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Burnout

Post by classical_Liberal »

shemp wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:31 am
I wouldn't call those 7 years misery, since I had nights and weekends mostly free (I was called in after hours to fix emergencies maybe once every three months). And I was treated well by the managers because they were terrified I might quit and they'd never find a suitable replacement, especially since a security clearance was required.
Sounds like you traded career/skill capital to get a job that was better for you than the first five years, even though it was "dead end". Then coasted to FI in better suited employment. I think more people should do this.

Curious, did you start your business after this job? you should write a journal, I'd like to read your story!

shemp
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Re: Burnout

Post by shemp »

Yes, for 4 years after semi-retiring from my corporate job, I ran a home business selling a software program I had written. This was in the late 1990's, when software prices were higher (my single user version was $199, it was a program for Windows NT sold to businesses) but expenses also higher (about $3000/month for advertising in print media was my major expense). Eventually competition moved in and I had a choice: enhance my program to match the competition, or sell my customer list and call it quits. I took the latter option.

I was lean FIRE when I left the corporate job and semi-retired, and fat FIRE after 4 years running my home business and fully retiring. My net worth has since grown by 3 times because I continue to spend less than my income (from investments since retiring).

My first few posts here were in a personal journal.

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Lemur
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Re: Burnout

Post by Lemur »

@Shemp

Very nice. The definition of networth in 'run-away' mode. You really lucked out being in software development in the late 90s though right? That was pretty much the software gold-rush...

I guess the modern day version of what you accomplished is being a silicon valley tech start-up.

shemp
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Re: Burnout

Post by shemp »

PC software has been an easy way to start a home business since the early 1980's. Mainframe and mini computer software always took big upfront investment, but PC plus programming software could be bought for like $5000 back in 1980, which is like $15000 on today's dollars. Nowadays, used PCs are almost free, which is a mixed blessing: reduces your investment, in case you are just starting out and poor, but also increases competition you face.

Personally, I think the real gold rush was early 1980's. Easy then to write the first program to automate dentists offices, veterinarian offices, bookstores, etc, etc. First mover makes it easy to make a fortune. Programs then sold for like $495 ($1500 in today's dollars), of which 70% could be profit. Multiply by 1000 customers and you're lean FIRE. 5000 customers and you're very fat FIRE.

Only thing special about late 1990's that really benefited me was that businesses were loose with money then. They tighter after 2001, then loose again towards 2007, then very tight during the 2008 crash and for a few years after, then loose again, now we are in another tight period where they try to cut costs and avoid buying anything. But if your program is desperately needed or saves big money, it will sell even in the worst of times.

Late 1990's was famous as dotcom era, but that was more marketing of websites than actual software that did things. Really innovative PC software like word processors, spreadsheets, CAD and other graphics programs, etc were developed earlier. Other than web browsers and Java/JavaScript, I can't think of any important real software associated with dotcom mania.

Modern day equivalent is apps for smartphones, but now you need massive volume because of low prices, and competition is ferocious. If I were starting out, I would go into robotics: software to control machines that automate tasks that are dangerous or difficult or expensive if humans do them. For example, underground mining machines, fruit picking machines, meat packing plant machines, military sentry duty or sniper machines, etc.

suomalainen
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Re: Burnout

Post by suomalainen »

https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2021/0 ... ition-scam

The gist:
[ I worked hard at my job but] Then I saw a meme [that said] 'if you died tomorrow, your job would be posted faster than your obituary,' and it sucked all the joy out of everything I did.
This is why burnout hits when work fails to live up to our expectations of it. Many of us were raised on the mantra: “It’s not work if you love what you do,” and so we want to believe that our jobs can not only provide financial stability, but also emotional and spiritual nourishment. Not all work is a calling, but the journey toward finding the right job can be likened to a pilgrimage. In a time of increasing secularism, work remains our steadfast religion.
And yet, in the depths of disillusionment and burnout, there can also sometimes be a strange sense of freedom in recognizing that work might never provide the purpose and emotional sustenance you once believed it would. And that's okay. You'll survive. Collectively, we will simply need to come up with a new way of thinking about work. It turns out, work — like any relationship — isn't the be-all, end-all we’d thought it could be.
There's no real solutions offered other than to put work in the proper perspective or of the "take a break", "set boundaries", etc. variety. Of interest to me was the conversation in 2B1S' journal about this and the broadening of the idea to post-work as well:
jacob wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:02 pm
PS: The same thing can happen with being FIRE'd. Fortunately it hasn't happened to me. But one's post-work perspective and plans definitely need to expand beyond "traveling" because very few retirees manage to find that meaningfully fulfilling for more than a few years.
PPS: Also see the large number of freedom-from/to (positive/negative freedom) discussions. Is what you're retiring-to sustainable?

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Lemur
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Re: Burnout

Post by Lemur »

@suomalainen
Interesting article.

Wishful thinking here...
Instead of encouraging vacations, discrete periods of rest, it’s time to enact labor protections that guarantee higher wages, that end at-will employment, that boost unemployment benefits permanently, that disentangle healthcare access from employment status. In other words, creating a world where workers who aren't being treated well, who aren't satisfied with their jobs, can simply quit without a backwards glance. Until that happens, burnout will continue to be endemic in our society, and individuals will continue to find their own solutions for how to cope.
So these aren't happening anytime soon. So I'm curious is if there is any good medical / science research on how exactly to deal with burnout? Or prevent it. Especially if your job requires your time 40+ hours a week. So far I've only seen anecdotal experience...

For me, if it wasn't for actively resisting my employer- I would be major burned out right now...but ironically enough the resisting itself lowers my stamina bar.

But here are some things that personally have helped me.

1.) My laptop gets shutoff at 5-5:30pm regardless of workload. Sometimes there is great temptation to keep working to have some things out of your way but...usually by this time one is mentally burned out and doing a bunch of half-assed work anyway. Mental acuity is off anyway. Especially for jobs that require mental creativity like programming
2.) I make it a point to never log in on weekends ever. Okay well I've failed here and there but only if mission critical (real chance of me getting fired).
3.) Reducing expectations / accepting you won't make everyone happy. I do my client work and that is it - no business initiatives that my managers have asked me to contribute to to support the firm. My managers have made it clear while I'm getting good performance reviews - I won't get promoted either for this stance. At some point I got tired of dancing around the subject so I became explicit that I'm not aiming for promotion anymore. This felt weird. Who does that lol? But I'm glad I did that. I rarely get asked anymore about "opportunities."
4.) Engaged in during the week hobbies - walk everyday at lunch, tennis after work sometimes, reading a fiction book. I think part of the crux of burnout is having your job "on you mind 24/7" which is my personal crux...Whatever helps occupy your brain-space is better than having your job in your brain-space.
5.) Another thing that helped was having a journal near my laptop and just writing out my to-dos or ideas to explore for tomorrow. Just so I can get it written down and out of my mind.

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Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Burnout

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

Lemur wrote:
Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:54 pm
So these aren't happening anytime soon. So I'm curious is if there is any good medical / science research on how exactly to deal with burnout? Or prevent it. Especially if your job requires your time 40+ hours a week. So far I've only seen anecdotal experience...
Develop investosis and a multi millionaire dollar portfolio so as to become part of the shareholder class giving other people burnout.

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