Best Majors for ERE

[Seneca]

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ti ... 20899.html

I personally think there is real wisdom there despite being on the crappy Daily Ticker.

[Spartan_Warrior]

@Seneca: How do you think that applies to this topic?

I read this article and the original blog post yesterday and thought both were terrible. More smug stereotyping with a typically careerist slant. This comment about sums it up:

This whole post is pretty much reductive, knee-jerk bullshit. Gen-Y is unhappy not because they think they are special and refuse to work hard. They are unhappy because since they were born (early 1980s) the institutions that had held this country together for the previous 50 years have been systematically dismantled. The boomer (and now X) generations 'worked hard' by enriching themselves and chasing speculative bubbles for the past 25 years, squandering the what had been the most prosperous era in the history of the world. And they continue to do so through entitlement programs that will be broke by the time we qualify. Wealth inequality is the biggest it's been since the gilded age and economic mobility (especially for young people) is worse than any other western democracy. And you think it comes down to 'feelings?'

Well, at least you got to use that picture of a unicorn vomiting a rainbow so I guess this post isn't a total waste.

Although now that I know blog posts can go viral just by attaching a racial slur to a few simplistic and meaningless generational stereotypes, I'm scrambling to come up with a blog post of my own involving a derogatory acronym about Baby Boomers. I'm thinking CHINKS (Can't Have It Now, Kids, Sorry!) or maybe HONKEYS (Hedonistic Oldsters Now Killing Entitlements for gen Y Suckers).

[Dragline]

I thought the premise was wrong -- I don't see Gen-Y as being particularly unhappy. Unrealistic or uncertain -- yeah, sure. But the biggest complaint I usually hear about the young is "How can they be so damned optimistic? Don't they know the world is about to end in [pick your favorite] apocalyptic scenario!"

Another observation -- the author/interviewee was born on the Gen X/Gen Y cusp and sounds much more like the former than the latter. And you're right -- its seems like mostly word-marketing to drive traffic to his blogs and websites. I suspect he's read a lot of Tim Ferriss.

[Dragline]

As a fellow college student who is after ERE ideals, choose something that you like to do. And if you want a degree that is more "job opportunistic" I guess you can double major. But honestly I am a Geography major with a minor in GIS because I like the broad subject that it is, not because it will guarantee me a money-making career.

Don't mean to put you on the spot, but what is your plan for the first couple years after college? I'm not talking about a career. Just what do you see yourself doing? And are you getting a "free" ride like Zalo or will you have debt?

[Spartan_Warrior]

@Dragline: Really? I would be very surprised if the blogger (Urban) is familiar with Tim Ferriss, who advocates against careerism. (Maybe he's familiar with Ferriss's blogging and advertising techniques.) Like I said, his entire position is totally careerist. "Pay your dues in your 20s, do grunt work", etc, etc. All this talking about Gen Y needing to humble their expectations. So working two minimum wage jobs with a Master's degree and a mortgage-worth of student loans isn't humbled enough?

The interviewer ends with:

"So, message for Millennials: Put your head down and work!"

Please. Pardon me while I go throw up (rainbows).

I also disagree with the premise that Millennials are any more unhappy than other generations, though if they are, I think they have a right to be. I just want to shake these kinds of people and shout, "It's the economy, stupid!" Telling me to feel better about eating shit for 50 years working to enrich some corporation, or accusing me of being "entitled" (for wanting to live indoors and eat food) is not, to me, intelligent or helpful.

(Wondering if this is worthy of its own thread to avoid derailing this one.)

[Dragline]

@Dragline: Really? I would be very surprised if the blogger (Urban) is familiar with Tim Ferriss, who advocates against careerism. (Maybe he's familiar with Ferriss's blogging and advertising techniques.)

Yes that's what I had in mind -- Ferriss is really a marketing machine when it comes right down to it. I poked at a couple to the guy's blogs and they had that "hacking life" meme to them. I don't think Urban really cares what he is talking about so long as it creates a buzz. That's why it has that "I've heard this before" quality to it. [And sorry about the derailing. Will shut up about this now.]

[TheWanderingScholar]

@dragline: No problem about putting me on the spot. Whatever debt I have (which I will try to keep minimal) is going to be paid off considering I am going to one of the cheaper in state schools for only three years besides the usual four year (dual credits courses are amazing). And also my parents are going to foot most of the bill*. How I am going to pay it off is by at the very least getting an entrance job in the petroleum industry however whatever job seems the interesting and pays a decent ($40k) amount will always be up for consideration, even if it has nothing to do with GIS.

*That being said I will create a secret fund for paying them back. It is the least I can do besides the usual graduate college in a timely manner and get a job.

[Spartan_Warrior]

@Dragline: Well, I can agree to that!

Back on the topic: IMO (and in my experience), regardless of whether you major in something "career-friendly" or not, the biggest factors in your ability to land a job after college are: 1) who you know* and 2) very polished interviewing skills.

*Do internships during college. Maybe in a few different fields if you can. I would not be in my current job if I hadn't met and impressed industry insiders during a college internship.

[Seneca]

I posted that link because passion keeps coming up.

There are many things about Ferriss’ stuff I don’t agree with, but I found a breakthrough idea reading his books...you don't have to find your passion in your job. (I probably would’ve been better advised to go back and find a link to a topical Ferriss blog post, this one just happened to bubble up in my browser.) Ferriss posits our job is best optimized to fund/enable your passions, because you're not likely to find your passion in your job, especially early in your career. As Spartan says, he's anti-careerism.

I think the mainstream message you need to be passionate about your work is perfectly careerist, afterall, if you plan on doing something 40 years, best to make sure it doesn’t suck for you right?

This is exactly why I don't think passion for work matters too much early on the path to ERE, at least not as much as optimizing cashflows and learning skills as soon as possible, particularly in light of the time value of money. Look at most of the pre-FI journals on the forum, I think they support Ferriss' assertion that most people will never be passionate about their jobs, at least, until they don’t need a job. IME Millenials are much more likely to delay getting started because they spend too much time “searching” for something many will never find. Not to mention, all the ramifications of the debt load most will carry coming out of university.

The whole premise of ERE is you can get there in 5 years. To get there you have two inputs to optimize, learning skills and earning money. I think for the young person interested in pursuing ERE ideals, they should work both ASAP, regardless of passion for what is generating your cash. There is lots of time for passion in your life, and it seems to me finding work you’re passionate about is much easier to find with both a bit of experience under your belt, and no worry about the pay.

[Dragline]

@dragline: No problem about putting me on the spot. Whatever debt I have (which I will try to keep minimal) is going to be paid off considering I am going to one of the cheaper in state schools for only three years besides the usual four year (dual credits courses are amazing). And also my parents are going to foot most of the bill*. How I am going to pay it off is by at the very least getting an entrance job in the petroleum industry however whatever job seems the interesting and pays a decent ($40k) amount will always be up for consideration, even if it has nothing to do with GIS.

*That being said I will create a secret fund for paying them back. It is the least I can do besides the usual graduate college in a timely manner and get a job.

Thanks, Y&W. You can pay them back by being self-sufficient from the get-go after school is done. My experience is that that's all most parents want to see in terms of pay-back.

Second question -- how does your degree or course choice impact your ability to meet the short-term goal of getting the entry job in the petroleum industry? What are the qualifications you need for that? (BTW, I would have to view the second answer as a non-answer because it lacks any specificity.)

You see, these are the two questions I think Zalo should be asking himself -- (Q1) what am I going to do next (not forever -- just next) -- that gives you (A1)? and then (Q2) is there something I should be doing now to make sure that (A1) actually happens. If you don't answer (Q1) and get (A1) for yourself first, I don't know how you answer (Q2) other than with the default (A2), which is "whatever feels good right now".

Now its quite possible that the answer to Q2 is "nothing", in which case you can go with the default A2, but I would suspect that that is not usually the case. Lots of people screw themselves by just never answering Q1 in any specific form. In that case, you get to live by what someone else has planned for you, who may be chosen at random. And then A1 then often becomes "not much."

[TheWanderingScholar]

@Dragline:
My course work is tangentially next to the petroleum industry in that Geology overlaps with it a lot, so if getting a minor in Geology is needed I can easily do that. Not only but GIS/Remote Sensing (classes that I am going to take) also help find where the oil is at, where is buried at, and from there I can theoretically help engineers figure out how plan the dig towards the oil/shale. My concentration in Environment is also useful if a company needs someone to minimize risk of environmental damage i.e. Luminant.
The reason I chose Geography over Geology is because I need less lab-course work, more varied in potential careers, and overall more interesting.

http://www.exprodat.com/Blogs/blog_Top- ... d-Gas-.htm

^Also this.

[Spartan_Warrior]

Essentially I agree that the question Zalo should be asking is "what am I going to do next" at this point in his life. Where I think I/Jacob/Ego were coming from in our responses is whether college/education itself should be tailored solely to "what you do next" (especially given that for ERErs "what you do next" may not last very long) or if indeed it should be more broadly applicable to "what am I going to do forever".

I think that's a pretty important question too, but I may be in the minority. I understand the common conception of a college education nowadays is simply as a stepping stool into some career field. Given the expenses around college, for most people this may very well be the best way of looking at it.

Personally, I went to college at the time simply because "it's what you're supposed to do". Not proud of it, but that's the truth. I then decided on Computer Science as a major because that was "what I'm going to do next". I had no passion or interest in it (although I do indeed now work in IT fields) and quickly realized it was not applicable to who I am or what I see as my life's journey.

Finally, I double-majored in Philosophy and Psychology. I thought this would give me the broadest foundation for logical thinking, insight into people and relationships, the world and my place in it. In other words, I eventually opted to study "what I'm going to do forever" instead of "what I'm going to do next". I don't regret the decision. If I would change anything, it wouldn't be my degree, but maybe whether I went to college at all. (I will admit, I had already gained the aforementioned connections through internships before I changed majors.)

I graduated in summer 2008 at the peak of the recession and still had a full-time job offer in a matter of months... working for a software developer, sans Computer Science degree. My starting salary was under $40k, but after a few strategic job hops, I now make nearly $80k at age 27, with a very flexible position that--as Ferriss would advocate--allows me to support my real passions.

YMMV.

[Dragline]

Es (I will admit, I had already gained the aforementioned connections through internships before I changed majors.)

I graduated in summer 2008 at the peak of the recession and still had a full-time job offer in a matter of months... working for a software developer, sans Computer Science degree. My starting salary was under $40k, but after a few strategic job hops, I now make nearly $80k at age 27, with a very flexible position that--as Ferriss would advocate--allows me to support my real passions.

Thanks -- I think you illustrate what I was trying to say better than I was saying it. Look at it conversely -- if you had not taken some few classes and done the internships in computer, would you have been able to get that position and be on the way to FI? And what would you have done in the alternate universe where you went straight for psychology and philosophy, never learned any programming and never made those connections?

In your case, that was enough to prepare for what you planned to do next.

[Seneca]

I strongly agree with where you're both going, Spartan and Dragline.

I left a job I had more specific passion about, for one that was more enabling of a Renaissance lifestyle and am overall happier for it too. This might sound a bit at cross purposes because previously it was often hard to tell where work stopped and play started, but at the same time, it made other demands of time/lifestyle that were not aligned to this bigger goal.

This is the reason I felt the need to bring it up as I've personally watched this trendy idea of "passion" or "do what you love", without keeping in mind a greater purpose, catch out many people of the current university demographic.

Sorry for the intellectually lazy link.

[Ego]

(Q1) what am I going to do next (not forever -- just next) -- that gives you (A1)? and then (Q2) is there something I should be doing now to make sure that (A1) actually happens. If you don't answer (Q1) and get (A1) for yourself first, I don't know how you answer (Q2) other than with the default (A2), which is "whatever feels good right now".

Now its quite possible that the answer to Q2 is "nothing", in which case you can go with the default A2, but I would suspect that that is not usually the case. Lots of people screw themselves by just never answering Q1 in any specific form. In that case, you get to live by what someone else has planned for you, who may be chosen at random. And then A1 then often becomes "not much."

False dilemma. Just because I do not have every step in my life planned out from here - or even the next step - does not mean I automatically default to "whatever feels good right now."

Framing it the way you have above creates a serious problem. It creates the impression that only failures don't know their next steps. In reality, being able to cope when the next step is unknown or obscured is itself a skill. It is learned, by putting oneself in the position where we must cope with the unknown. That's when we get comfortable not knowing and get good at being able to improvise the next step.

Filling in the unknown with "a plan" or "the next step" for no other reason than because the unknown is uncomfortable or inconvenient is no plan at all. Its sole purpose is to eliminate the unknown. To fill the void.

Void filling results in some of the wackiest decisions.

[Spartan_Warrior]

@Dragline: I get what you're saying. It's an interesting thought experiment, to be sure, and no one can say where I might be now. On the one hand, no, I probably would not be in my current job/career track if I had not briefly studied "what to do next" in the form of Comp Sci. On the other hand, I was already doing freelance writing throughout college and by the time I graduated I was starting to make a pretty good income before I secured that full-time job. Writing is something that I actually am quite passionate about, something that will always be an intrinsic part of my aforementioned life journey, and something that I very much look forward to pursuing when I reach FI. Maybe in the alternate universe where I didn't study Comp Sci and didn't get my current job, I would have toughed it out with freelance writing or found something else closer to my passion. I might have been less well paid--or I might not have been. I might not have been on the path to quick FI--but would I even care?

I am just very leery about telling people "study X so as to maximize income" or "study X because that will be valued by an employer". Frankly, I just don't care what employers value. What about what YOU value? What about who you are? What about life after maximizing income--or even life while maximizing income?

I'm not saying either choice is wrong. I'm just saying that the OP needs to decide what he wants. That's why I tried to clarify in my initial post what he means by "best major for ERE". Obviously, there are objective, quantifiable "best majors for accumulating wealth quickly", but any other goal beyond that requires deeper introspection.

My only other reiteration is that I honestly don't think the major is that important for securing a well-paying job. The skills I learned in Computer Science didn't make a lick of difference (I don't and haven't done any actual programming); all that mattered was the personal connections I made in the internship.

It's who you know and how well you interview that will determine your career success IMO. The only difference the major makes is probably in starting salary.

[Dragline]

(Q1) what am I going to do next (not forever -- just next) -- that gives you (A1)? and then (Q2) is there something I should be doing now to make sure that (A1) actually happens. If you don't answer (Q1) and get (A1) for yourself first, I don't know how you answer (Q2) other than with the default (A2), which is "whatever feels good right now".

Now its quite possible that the answer to Q2 is "nothing", in which case you can go with the default A2, but I would suspect that that is not usually the case. Lots of people screw themselves by just never answering Q1 in any specific form. In that case, you get to live by what someone else has planned for you, who may be chosen at random. And then A1 then often becomes "not much."

False dilemma. Just because I do not have every step in my life planned out from here - or even the next step - does not mean I automatically default to "whatever feels good right now."

Framing it the way you have above creates a serious problem. It creates the impression that only failures don't know their next steps. In reality, being able to cope when the next step is unknown or obscured is itself a skill. It is learned, by putting oneself in the position where we must cope with the unknown. That's when we get comfortable not knowing and get good at being able to improvise the next step.

Filling in the unknown with "a plan" or "the next step" for no other reason than because the unknown is uncomfortable or inconvenient is no plan at all. Its sole purpose is to eliminate the unknown. To fill the void.

Void filling results in some of the wackiest decisions.

That's why its good idea to have more than one plan/option. And to adjust today's activities accordingly so those options can be available. Y&W's double-major idea makes a lot of sense.

I would not confuse the "unknown" with the "unknowable". To say "I can't possibly know anything about my future or even what my preferences are right now or will be" sounds like you're just copping out and making up an excuse because you don't want to take the time and effort to think about it. And eerily similar to the thought processes reflected in another recent thread where the thought of early retirement might be too scary because one can't fathom what to do next. If you really don't know what you want to do next, its time to start doing some research to discover your options. Sometimes its better to start by asking the question in reverse -- as in "what things do I NOT want to have to do next?"

I was watching a documentary the other night about athletes who make millions and then go broke because they have no plans or concrete thoughts about what to do with themselves when they are done with their athletic careers. It's actually very common. There was a list of hundreds of them, and many quite famous. Almost all of them "went with the flow" or convinced themselves they did not need to think about their futures until they were done.

There was a bit of advice that came out of it that I wrote down: "A goal without a plan is a wish."

But without any goals, you don't even get to have wishes, let alone plans.

BTW, what do you default to when you have no plans for the future if not "whatever feels good right now"? "Nothing" perhaps (although those two things may be one and the same from personal experience)? Certainly not "whatever feels bad right now". I think many might go for "whatever someone important to me thinks I should do", which may be the worst choice long-term, because its another cop-out for not doing your own research into what you want for yourself.

[TheWanderingScholar]

(Q1)



That's why its good idea to have more than one plan/option. And to adjust today's activities accordingly so those options can be available. Y&W's double-major idea makes a lot of sense.

I would not confuse the "unknown" with the "unknowable". To say "I can't possibly know anything about my future or even what my preferences are right now or will be" sounds like you're just copping out and making up an excuse because you don't want to take the time and effort to think about it. And eerily similar to the thought processes reflected in another recent thread where the thought of early retirement might be too scary because one can't fathom what to do next. If you really don't know what you want to do next, its time to start doing some research to discover your options. Sometimes its better to start by asking the question in reverse -- as in "what things do I NOT want to have to do next?"

I was watching a documentary the other night about athletes who make millions and then go broke because they have no plans or concrete thoughts about what to do with themselves when they are done with their athletic careers. It's actually very common. There was a list of hundreds of them, and many quite famous. Almost all of them "went with the flow" or convinced themselves they did not need to think about their futures until they were done.

There was a bit of advice that came out of it that I wrote down: "A goal without a plan is a wish."

But without any goals, you don't even get to have wishes, let alone plans.

BTW, what do you default to when you have no plans for the future if not "whatever feels good right now"? "Nothing" perhaps (although those two things may be one and the same from personal experience)? Certainly not "whatever feels bad right now". I think many might go for "whatever someone important to me thinks I should do", which may be the worst choice long-term, because its another cop-out for not doing your own research into what you want for yourself.

Correction, it is a Geography major with a geology minor. Cause duals majors is just too much time for me. Also too much hard science.

[jacob]

I think the point of the OP question was the realization of the following progression of selecting ones major

1) Make a list of the useful degrees excluding the useless ones (in terms of employment)
2) Pick whichever seems most interesting of those.

That's the sensible way to pick, combining affinity with reality-constraints.

In OP's OP post, one (1) was mentioned. Hence the confusion.

To make the (1) list, I think all that's needed is a quick google search on "highest paid college graduates" and "lowest paid", also "highest unemployment", etc.

In terms of what's useful [in terms of life]. That's much harder. It's going to be anecdotal at best.

[BeyondtheWrap]

*Do internships during college. Maybe in a few different fields if you can. I would not be in my current job if I hadn't met and impressed industry insiders during a college internship.

^ This. Don't be like me.

I didn't do any internships while I was in college. I also changed my mind a few times about what I wanted to do. I graduated 2 years ago and now work in a low-wage retail job. Don't be like me.

To the OP's question, I would suggest to major in something that will help you get a job, that you are good at, and that you kind of like. I ended up choosing Mathematics when I was in college for these reasons. Unfortunately, I couldn't get a job with it.

If I had to do it again, I would choose Computer Science, since employers will pay for programming skills, and do internships while in college. That is what I recommend you do, if Computer Science is something you like and are good at. If not, I still think a few classes (>1) would help your resume.

Then I suggest minoring in your passion. For me, this was Theatre, and for you it would be Music.

If you don't want to do something STEM-related, then it might mean that all you can do with your major is teach. If that's the case, do an Education program and become qualified to be a teacher when you graduate.