Should I drop Computer Science 111?

[TopHatFox]

Hi there,

I originally had an account here called Happy Garrett, since I never like my real name, but I've since matured--I now really like Gonzalo, or Zalo--and I decided to create this new account.

Anyway, I've been at Amherst College for a few months now, and I've been taking courses in the environmental studies track, the music track, and the computer science track.

I like the former two, and I can do well in both if I put in the effort; but, I suck at the third, and even if I put in significant effort I still have trouble accomplishing the labs or understanding the lectures. I also scored a 61 in the midterm, along with the majority of the class. That said, the proff decided that as long as a student genuinely tries in the course, they'd get a B for the semester.

I think I'd prefer to just use the freshmen drop, though.

1. I'm not learning that much; I find myself at the mercy of TAs or peers
2. It takes away considerable time where I could be reading about other things on my own.
3. I just wanted to see if I liked this class/major, and I don't think I do.
4. I am not naturally inclined for puzzles or math.
5. I could just learn about investing and other practical skills while doing enviro/music

Still, I am having some problems with going through with this.

1. The professor tutored me, we worked on a problem, and he said I have potential/offered a private tutor.
2. computer science is very lucrative; environmental studies/music not so much.
3. I'd have a W on my record instead of a B; future employment might be hurt.
4. I wouldn't be able to drop a course in spring semester, if it comes to that.
5. Knowing programming, the little I understand in class, might be useful.

What do you think?

[jennypenny]

the proff decided that as long as a student genuinely tries in the course, they'd get a B for the semester.

I think almost everyone will need a rudimentary understanding of programming in the future. Besides, who drops a guaranteed B?

[theanimal]

Stay with it. It's only 1 class, you are (at least) half way through the semester and like Jenny said..who would drop a guaranteed B??

[chicago81]

I find it odd that a university course will give you credit just for trying, even if you don't sufficiently learn the required materials.

[Dragline]

I'd take a B in a second. In prospective employer terms, when you get your degree from Amherst, no one is going to ask what your GPA was if its B-ish. They'll just check the "good school" box and move on to whether your resume has any typos.

Now here's my surrogate father schtick, since my eldest will be off to college next year: Get your goddamn STEM degree -- I sent you there to get something marketable. If you want to do something different for the rest of your life, that's fine and I will support it. But you still have to support yourself and you only make your life harder if you don't get a marketable degree. You have the rest of your life to study whatever else you want after you go ERE at 30.

You certainly don't need a degree in music to do music. I don't have a degree in psychology and I practice it all the time.

[TopHatFox]

Now here's my surrogate father schtick, since my eldest will be off to college next year: Get your goddamn STEM degree -- I sent you there to get something marketable. If you want to do something different for the rest of your life, that's fine and I will support it. But you still have to support yourself and you only make your life harder if you don't get a marketable degree. You have the rest of your life to study whatever else you want after you go ERE at 30.

You certainly don't need a degree in music to do music. I don't have a degree in psychology and I practice it all the time.

https://www.amherst.edu/academiclife/de ... =475550677

Got any suggestions?

I'm thinking marketable liberal STEM degrees are: bio, chem, physics, econ, comp sci, and math.

I probably wouldn't do very good in any of those considering I don't like them; leading to a less than marketable degree. :l

There's my dilemma. If you have any ways around this please let me know (certifications, internships, networking, etc)

Many of the investment banking/consulting jobs allow for any majors thankfully. I'll be speaking to a career center representative Wednesday about career options in different majors; I'll see what they come up with.

[George the original one]

Guaranteed B? Ya, you're crazy to drop.

Employers don't care what your GPA was. They want to see a degree, any degree, but preferably one related to what they're hiring you for and if you don't have that, then a list of classes you took that are applicable. Honor students get a little more respect.

Finishing at least one computer science programming class tells the world that you know the terminology and have an understanding of the methodology. It does not make you a programmer.

[Felix]

In case you need yet another voice: Get the free B.

[almostthere]

Dragline speaks the truth. Ignore at your peril. Oh god how I wish someone had been that blunt with me.

[Dragline]

I'm thinking marketable liberal STEM degrees are: bio, chem, physics, econ, comp sci, and math.

I probably wouldn't do very good in any of those considering I don't like them; leading to a less than marketable degree. :l

Forget econ, especially if you don't like it. If you can get B's in comp sci, that's decent. But what is the least objectionable to you? Whether you are good at it right now is less important than whether you can stick with it.

Other thing to consider is straight English, especially its focused on writing. Avoid creative writing and would-be novelist courses. Writing coherently -- especially short pieces -- is more valuable in the internet era that it was 20 years ago. It won't make you rich, but it will get you a job.

Any chance you could get a double major? Mine was in Materials Science Engineering and Economics and it served me well over the years, although I do not work in either of those fields. A science and music would be great if its possible. Then you have something to enjoy "now" AND a backstop investment for your future.

[Ego]

STEM is the way to go.... today. Will it be true in the future?

http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2013/10/14/s ... s-charette

There's a claim among manufacturers, among other types in the I-tech industry that say that we don't have the skills, that we don't have the numbers nor do we have the skills. And if you take a look and you listen to people like Gary Becker, who's a Nobel Prize winner in economics who talks about bringing in a million or more H-1B visas - in fact, he doesn't want to have any visa limits - to lower the earning premium that STEM workers get in this country.

Alan Greenspan made that same point a few years ago, saying that basically our skilled workers are paid too much. And all of this is to try to increase the economic capability of the States in comparison to the rest of the world. But it's a pretty hard sell to STEM students if you say to them, well, the government really thinks you're paid too much, and it's going to do everything in its power to lower your pay.

The Stem Crisis is a Myth: http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/educat ... -is-a-myth

Can anyone envision a future where an unmotivated, mediocre computer programmer is paid less than a highly engaged, high skilled, degree-carrying musician?

ERE is about cultivating skills and accumulating sufficient savings to free us from having to work at a deadening profession for the rest of our lives. That's the ultimate goal, right? If that's the end-goal, shouldn't that also be the goal at the beginning?

Is income-maximization all there is?

[George the original one]

> Writing coherently -- especially short pieces -- is more valuable in the
> internet era that it was 20 years ago. It won't make you rich, but it will
> get you a job.

And it's particularly true if you have a good grounding in STEM. The person who can communicate clearly is our clear candidate for hiring.

[Dragline]

Can anyone envision a future where an unmotivated, mediocre computer programmer is paid less than a highly engaged, high skilled, degree-carrying musician?

Certainly not in the very near future, which is what we are talking about. I have two relatives with degrees in music -- advanced degrees that required many years of study and hard work. They are very good at what they do. But unless you are extraordinarily talented -- as in the best at Julliard -- that gets you a teaching job at best. Which is fine, but won't exactly put you on the road to FI. In fact, it will probably delay it by a decade or more unless your schooling is paid for by someone else. Most jobs in this area require at least a masters and proficiency at multiple instruments.

ERE is about cultivating skills and accumulating sufficient savings to free us from having to work at a deadening profession for the rest of our lives. That's the ultimate goal, right? If that's the end-goal, shouldn't that also be the goal at the beginning?

Is income-maximization all there is?

Gotta crawl before you can walk. The shortest path to "accumulating sufficient savings" is (a) inherit the money from a rich relative; or (b) maximize your income in the short-term. Sufficient savings are unlikely to be derived in the short term from skills that are not easily marketable, regardless of how palatable they might otherwise be. You gotta survive before you can thrive, and accumulating sufficient savings requires a decent income unless (a) is an option. The non-marketable skills can be acquired later.

[Ego]

Gotta crawl before you can walk. The shortest path to "accumulating sufficient savings" is (a) inherit the money from a rich relative; or (b) maximize your income in the short-term. Sufficient savings are unlikely to be derived in the short term from skills that are not easily marketable, regardless of how palatable they might otherwise be. You gotta survive before you can thrive, and accumulating sufficient savings requires a decent income unless (a) is an option. The non-marketable skills can be acquired later.

Shortest path?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERbvKrH-GC4

Edit: I am all for maximizing income. And if a person is truly lost and has no idea what they want to study then it makes sense to pick the most lucrative of the many options rather than settling for women's studies or psychology. But when someone like Gonzalo has a pretty good idea of what he enjoys doing and what he wants to study, then it seems sad to refocus that person toward something that is more palatable to the parent. Then again, I am not a parent so it is easy for me to say.

[Avni1]

IMO, you should spend the next half of the semester figuring out precisely why you are rejecting CS as an option for yourself. It sounds like you've bought into the myth of 'talent'. You need talent to do original, path breaking work, not a freshman level programming course. That takes lots of work and learning how to manage frustration. Good skills to acquire no matter what you end up doing.

Have you considered environmental engineering instead? You may have to transfer. That can lead to good things.

Good luck,
A

[thebbqguy]

I'd stick it out. Its' only one class, but you will learn a lot.

FWIW, I have a history degree but I work in financial analysis as a manager. I didn't take my first accounting class until I was working on my MBA, which I abandoned after the first 3 courses with 2 A's and a B. My company is full of people with MBA's who are working in entry level analyst positions and have been for 10 years or more.

Most people say, "Why don't you teach? Don't most people with history degree's teach?"

I teach people every day. I write things that matter every day. The thing about an English degree or at least taking a lot of English classes is that you will automatically be ahead of many of your peers who can't write much better than a high school freshman.

Personally, I am not convinced that a degree matters a great deal unless you wish to work in a field that requires it. My brother-in-law worked as a law enforcement officer for the Fish and Wildlife Agency. His biology degree helped a great deal, but a biology degree probably isn't much better than a music degree if you are going to work in a field like insurance, finance, marketing, etc.

Do you like math at all? Many of the executive level managers I know have degrees in statistics and/or math.

I think experience and ability to take constructive criticism and improve your work product are much more important than the degree you obtain.

[Dragline]

I guess I don't believe that the degree defines the person. Its just a tool -- and the most immediate best use of this particular tool is to be able to leave school in four years and be able to produce the income to accumulate the savings to reach FI.

He doesn't need a degree in music to learn about it, do it, enjoy it, call himself a musician, hang out with musicians or get hired as one. This is true for virtually any artistic endeavor. He would only need the degree to teach it.

I would argue that by getting a degree that's not immediately marketable, he sets himself up exactly for the next stage in the video -- grad school and more debt. He doesn't have to do grad school and more debt if he picks something that gives him the option to get off the academic treadmill after only four years.

[TopHatFox]

I guess I don't believe that the degree defines the person. Its just a tool -- and the most immediate best use of this particular tool is to be able to leave school in four years and be able to produce the income to accumulate the savings to reach FI.

He doesn't need a degree in music to learn about it, do it, enjoy it, call himself a musician, hang out with musicians or get hired as one. This is true for virtually any artistic endeavor. He would only need the degree to teach it.

I would argue that by getting a degree that's not immediately marketable, he sets himself up exactly for the next stage in the video -- grad school and more debt. He doesn't have to do grad school and more debt if he picks something that gives him the option to get off the academic treadmill after only four years.

I agree with you, actually. A degree doesn't define me; in fact, I usually learn more on my own than by going to classes. It is, ultimately, just a tool.

Problem is, I don't really like the liberal arts STEM fields, or most other liberal arts; I came here namely because they paid for everything and had prestige/networking.

I drew closer to the music and enviro classes simply because they're two things I associate with (piano & veganism/frugality).

In other words, I'm open to change, I just don't think I'd have the commitment or enthusiasm to actually finish a STEM degree.

Still, maybe I'd grow to pick a major I enjoy that pays? or transfer to have more options....though I'm not sure if that'd be the best idea.

[mds]

Zalo, can you expand on what you don't like about CS? There were certainly some classes that I hated as an undergrad, but I found that I loved the software profession after graduation. Being able to sit down and build useful stuff, even if not physical, was hugely empowering to me. I didn't feel this way until I actually started working, so I'm glad I kept at it.

I think it's important to separate these two sentiments:

1) I hate this because it's hard
2) I hate this now and I'll hate this profession when I'm more skilled

It's kind of like learning guitar. It sucks in the beginning, but once you reach the point when you're able to learn a new song in a day and play it skillfully or join a band, it's very rewarding. After 4 years of CS and 5+ years professionally programming, most people can pick up new languages and frameworks in a couple weeks.

Some inspiration: http://edu.mkrecny.com/thoughts/dont-de ... uperpowers

[Dragline]

I guess I don't believe that the degree defines the person. Its just a tool -- and the most immediate best use of this particular tool is to be able to leave school in four years and be able to produce the income to accumulate the savings to reach FI.

He doesn't need a degree in music to learn about it, do it, enjoy it, call himself a musician, hang out with musicians or get hired as one. This is true for virtually any artistic endeavor. He would only need the degree to teach it.

I would argue that by getting a degree that's not immediately marketable, he sets himself up exactly for the next stage in the video -- grad school and more debt. He doesn't have to do grad school and more debt if he picks something that gives him the option to get off the academic treadmill after only four years.

I agree with you, actually. A degree doesn't define me; in fact, I usually learn more on my own than by going to classes. It is, ultimately, just a tool.

Problem is, I don't really like the liberal arts STEM fields, or most other liberal arts; I came here namely because they paid for everything and had prestige/networking.

I drew closer to the music and enviro classes simply because they're two things I associate with (piano & veganism/frugality).

In other words, I'm open to change, I just don't think I'd have the commitment or enthusiasm to actually finish a STEM degree.

Still, maybe I'd grow to pick a major I enjoy that pays? or transfer to have more options....though I'm not sure if that'd be the best idea.

I guess I have to ask -- what is your plan as to what you will do when you graduate? And I don't mean for the rest of your life, just the next one-two years post graduation.

Maybe if you start there and work backwards it would help. Then you have some goal in mind that will tell you whether your major is important at all to that goal. It might not be if you don't have any debt and are in a position to take job that doesn't necessary pay much and live small from the get-go. I's still probably go with English as a default degree knowing what I know today.

I teach and interview a lot of young would-be lawyers. Many of them chose an undergraduate degree without any planning just because they liked it or it came easy or they just fell into it. Then they graduated and couldn't find a job other than waiting tables or something similar. So they end up going back to school just to see if they can develop a marketable skill. And end up in more debt and are essentially trapped by it. A lot of young people are in very ugly financial situations because they did not have a realistic plan when they were in college and pretended to themselves that everything would magically just work out ok.

Uncle Dragline says: "Don't be one of those people. If you fail to plan, you plan to fail." Then he starts carrying on about walking 5 miles to school in the snow every day and having to go up hill both ways.