Some objections to ERE are extremely common, so I want to make a centralized list with responses. I have started a wiki page but ultimately this will probably become a page on the blog.
Also see viewtopic.php?t=601
I mostly need help with the objections, since to me they are so irrational that I can't think them up on my own. Hence, I ask the forum to list the objections you typically hear from other people below (or directly on the wikipage). I'll try to answer them on the wikipage.
Frequently Raised Objections
Similar to 2: "You want to live on how much (how little)? That is idiotic! Look at your earning potential! You could lead a much richer life!"
@7: "If everybody would do this, it wouldn't work"
15 - "Maybe I would like to do this, but my wife / my kids / my mum / my neigbours wouldn't approve of it."
16 - "Don't you want to leave money to your kids when you die?"
17 - "The numbers are just too damn confusing. The future is too unsure to make any decent calculation. I'll stick to what I know, which is working hard until age 67"
18 - Working is important / God created work so it must be good / You have to work with all your talents otherwise your life is wasted.
@7: "If everybody would do this, it wouldn't work"
15 - "Maybe I would like to do this, but my wife / my kids / my mum / my neigbours wouldn't approve of it."
16 - "Don't you want to leave money to your kids when you die?"
17 - "The numbers are just too damn confusing. The future is too unsure to make any decent calculation. I'll stick to what I know, which is working hard until age 67"
18 - Working is important / God created work so it must be good / You have to work with all your talents otherwise your life is wasted.
- But I want to live a rich life (They want to spend money stupidly - even when sometimes they know it is stupid)
- But I won't be able to hang out (won't fit in with) my friends any more
- But I won't be able to get a girlfriend if I act poor
- Well what is the point of life then if you just become a hermit ( or weirdo, or poor person) (This is from the believe that the point of life is happiness coupled with the believe that spending money makes you happy.... thus.. the point of life is to spend money.... Yes, people really do think that way)
- But then what the hell would I do all day? (If I don't work, and don't have cable, and don't go to the mall all the time, and don't go to the bar twice a week and drink my consciousness away, then I'd have nothing to do all day except just sit and stare at the wall) (Lack of creative or critical thinking and unwillingness to consider changing hobbies)
- But I have a duty to improve the world by working (adding value while working, and paying taxes)
And I think these last two are major objections, though I'm sure many people who have these objections do not like admitting them:
- But I couldn't keep my spending low - I would spend all the money and then be broke and have to go back to work. (~ no self control)
- But if I live like that, I would have to think for myself too much.. (Currently it is easy to figure out what to do with your life - do that everyone else does... If you're going to start acting differently, you don't have the clear examples to follow, and thus have to make a lot of 'hard' decisions about what to do)
- But I won't be able to hang out (won't fit in with) my friends any more
- But I won't be able to get a girlfriend if I act poor
- Well what is the point of life then if you just become a hermit ( or weirdo, or poor person) (This is from the believe that the point of life is happiness coupled with the believe that spending money makes you happy.... thus.. the point of life is to spend money.... Yes, people really do think that way)
- But then what the hell would I do all day? (If I don't work, and don't have cable, and don't go to the mall all the time, and don't go to the bar twice a week and drink my consciousness away, then I'd have nothing to do all day except just sit and stare at the wall) (Lack of creative or critical thinking and unwillingness to consider changing hobbies)
- But I have a duty to improve the world by working (adding value while working, and paying taxes)
And I think these last two are major objections, though I'm sure many people who have these objections do not like admitting them:
- But I couldn't keep my spending low - I would spend all the money and then be broke and have to go back to work. (~ no self control)
- But if I live like that, I would have to think for myself too much.. (Currently it is easy to figure out what to do with your life - do that everyone else does... If you're going to start acting differently, you don't have the clear examples to follow, and thus have to make a lot of 'hard' decisions about what to do)
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BeyondtheWrap
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I usually get the same few, the one I get most often is "you can't do that!". This usually comes when sitting around a fire in back yard ( wood I dragged out and cut by hand cost zip). And a few drinks down. Everyone will be sitting there, just talking and complaining how they don't want to go to work the following day, and how they wish they could just sit around and relax with friends and a drink and a fire...so I say why don't you? And then it comes out "you can't do that!". The "normal" has been so deeply implanted, just the here notion of 'well no one is forcing you, and you can do WHATEVER you want', puts them on the defensive.
I have always been the type to respond with "you're telling me I CAN'T do something? Yeah ok who the **** are you to tell me what I can and can't do". So ere is right up my alley, but the sheer lack of imagination and curiosity of how you can do something else, it's scary.
The world needs to remember that it's your life, your time and you can do anything you want.
I have always been the type to respond with "you're telling me I CAN'T do something? Yeah ok who the **** are you to tell me what I can and can't do". So ere is right up my alley, but the sheer lack of imagination and curiosity of how you can do something else, it's scary.
The world needs to remember that it's your life, your time and you can do anything you want.
I’ve found most objections fall into two categories, the package deal and the parade of horribles.
The package deal--if you follow ERE, you MUST also be:
A lazy bum
A vagrant, a tramp, or a hobo
Unemployed
A nerd, a social misfit, i.e., some kind of loser
A hermit
A tent dweller
A parasite, a mooch or a sleaze
A bohemian
A government worker with a pension
A stay at home spouse living off of the one that works
A drug dealer or some kind of petty criminal
A blogger who writes ebooks
A minimalist
A hoarder
A communist
A capitalist
An anarchist
An environmental kook
A doomer (maybe waiting for the earth’s polarity to flip?)
A conspiracy theorist (tin foil yes, but at half price!)
A survivalist
An ascetic
Rich (terrible)
Poor (horrible)
Or some combination of the above, choosing one from column A, etc.
Explaining that you could be any or none of these things with or without following ERE doesn’t seem to make an impression. People are determined to see a causal or at least symbiotic connection when their emotions tell them so, and if their irrational beliefs in linkage are challenged, well then, we have data and studies, and studies have shown . . . . Surveys can transmute superstition into science, as several well-known studies have proven conclusively, and there is a TED talk on youtube.
The Parade of Horribles-Something along the lines of:
If you follow ERE, you will wind up living in a seedy trailer park doing backbreaking outdoor manual labor using a wooden rake until your skin shrivels like a raisin, your hair and teeth fall out, you become stooped and arthritic. You will be childless, half blind, and going bankrupt in a nursing home while yearning to die.
Again, explaining that all these things can and do happen without ERE doesn’t penetrate, because people insist on irrational causal connections. I’m just waiting for the study that shows, with irrefutable data, that breaking a mirror results in increased frequency of bad luck events compared to the control group in a double blind. Further studies will be urgently needed to determine whether there is a reversion to the mean after 7 years.
The package deal--if you follow ERE, you MUST also be:
A lazy bum
A vagrant, a tramp, or a hobo
Unemployed
A nerd, a social misfit, i.e., some kind of loser
A hermit
A tent dweller
A parasite, a mooch or a sleaze
A bohemian
A government worker with a pension
A stay at home spouse living off of the one that works
A drug dealer or some kind of petty criminal
A blogger who writes ebooks
A minimalist
A hoarder
A communist
A capitalist
An anarchist
An environmental kook
A doomer (maybe waiting for the earth’s polarity to flip?)
A conspiracy theorist (tin foil yes, but at half price!)
A survivalist
An ascetic
Rich (terrible)
Poor (horrible)
Or some combination of the above, choosing one from column A, etc.
Explaining that you could be any or none of these things with or without following ERE doesn’t seem to make an impression. People are determined to see a causal or at least symbiotic connection when their emotions tell them so, and if their irrational beliefs in linkage are challenged, well then, we have data and studies, and studies have shown . . . . Surveys can transmute superstition into science, as several well-known studies have proven conclusively, and there is a TED talk on youtube.
The Parade of Horribles-Something along the lines of:
If you follow ERE, you will wind up living in a seedy trailer park doing backbreaking outdoor manual labor using a wooden rake until your skin shrivels like a raisin, your hair and teeth fall out, you become stooped and arthritic. You will be childless, half blind, and going bankrupt in a nursing home while yearning to die.
Again, explaining that all these things can and do happen without ERE doesn’t penetrate, because people insist on irrational causal connections. I’m just waiting for the study that shows, with irrefutable data, that breaking a mirror results in increased frequency of bad luck events compared to the control group in a double blind. Further studies will be urgently needed to determine whether there is a reversion to the mean after 7 years.
I think this is why I talk to very, very few people about ERE. Instead of arguing or trying to persude someone who is unwilling to consider alternative ways of looking at the world (which is most people), I tend to remain silent walk away. Or, when people are saying the ubiquitous, "there's gotta be a better way!" i respond, "yeah, I think I'm just going to retire." They always assume I'm joking...
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jennypenny
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Don't forget that ERE makes you a horrible parent because you're too lazy/cheap/selfish and you deny your kids their first world rights. If you're a parent you should be willing to "sacrifice" to give your kids the best of everything.
You don't pay for the latest gadgets or games. (we actually make our kids borrow them from the library!)
You don't buy the trendiest clothes and accessories and force them to suffer the scorn of their peers.
You drive an old car to further damage their social status. Sometimes you even make them *walk* to the swim club and library.
You live in a house that is just big enough for your needs, without game rooms or homework rooms (I kid you not) or craft rooms or TV rooms or separate bedrooms. (We live in a small ranch. One time when my DD's friend was over, she walked around and asked "Where's the rest of your house?")
You don't pay for piano lessons by concert pianists, travel soccer experiences that cost the equivalent of community college, or pre-school university (you know, because a kid couldn't possibly learn to read from their parents
).
You don't pay for $1K/week camps so your kids can "meet the right kind of kids" and learn important social skills they couldn't possibly learn anywhere else for free.
You refuse to hire a cleaning service and lawn service, and make them clean their rooms and cut the grass.
You cook food from scratch and make them eat it--homemade lunches in reusable containers, homemade birthday cakes (horrors!), macaroni and cheese that actually has cheese in it!
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I like Hoplite's parade of horribles. Just last week my DB said we were going to turn into the "weird people who live in the woods" whatever that means.
You don't pay for the latest gadgets or games. (we actually make our kids borrow them from the library!)
You don't buy the trendiest clothes and accessories and force them to suffer the scorn of their peers.
You drive an old car to further damage their social status. Sometimes you even make them *walk* to the swim club and library.
You live in a house that is just big enough for your needs, without game rooms or homework rooms (I kid you not) or craft rooms or TV rooms or separate bedrooms. (We live in a small ranch. One time when my DD's friend was over, she walked around and asked "Where's the rest of your house?")
You don't pay for piano lessons by concert pianists, travel soccer experiences that cost the equivalent of community college, or pre-school university (you know, because a kid couldn't possibly learn to read from their parents
).You don't pay for $1K/week camps so your kids can "meet the right kind of kids" and learn important social skills they couldn't possibly learn anywhere else for free.
You refuse to hire a cleaning service and lawn service, and make them clean their rooms and cut the grass.
You cook food from scratch and make them eat it--homemade lunches in reusable containers, homemade birthday cakes (horrors!), macaroni and cheese that actually has cheese in it!
=========
I like Hoplite's parade of horribles. Just last week my DB said we were going to turn into the "weird people who live in the woods" whatever that means.
So it seems like this thread finished up, but I'd like to add something that just happened.
I recently was called a Troll and a liar on the MMM forums (by a bunch of people, including a moderator, who honestly should know better) for my 3-year retirement plan, even though I'm 8 months in and doing well. Same reaction I hear from everyone. My father, a thoughtful and religious man, even called it "bullshit" (unusual to be cussed out by him) until I showed him math in pretty painful detail.
Clearly, reading this thread, the objections are emotional, not substantial. We challenge their way of thinking about the world, and people go crazy. The Wheaton Eco Scale analogy doesn't quite capture it, because if you're just more 'green', most people think you're kooky. If you have some serious walking-away-power that people desperately want, you become a target for attack.
Also, I don't want to be too harsh, but this is the community Jacob points to as the successor to ERE? I mean, good blog, but wow. Didn't see that coming.
I recently was called a Troll and a liar on the MMM forums (by a bunch of people, including a moderator, who honestly should know better) for my 3-year retirement plan, even though I'm 8 months in and doing well. Same reaction I hear from everyone. My father, a thoughtful and religious man, even called it "bullshit" (unusual to be cussed out by him) until I showed him math in pretty painful detail.
Clearly, reading this thread, the objections are emotional, not substantial. We challenge their way of thinking about the world, and people go crazy. The Wheaton Eco Scale analogy doesn't quite capture it, because if you're just more 'green', most people think you're kooky. If you have some serious walking-away-power that people desperately want, you become a target for attack.
Also, I don't want to be too harsh, but this is the community Jacob points to as the successor to ERE? I mean, good blog, but wow. Didn't see that coming.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/forum/th ... 27127/#new
There I described it as being between 2 and 3 years but starting out with a five figure savings (more accurate if you deem it beginning when I discovered ERE, but makes the math harder). Not sure if that colored the discourse against me, although I imagine it did.
Looking back (and even at the time I knew) I made a _classic_ mistake of caring what people on the internet think. So towards the end of when I paid attention I made some comments about the "if you think I'm a troll then stop talking to me". Seems like solid advice to me, but it might have been taken poorly, based on how the conversation progressed from that point on. But seriously, it hurt my feelings that the only feedback was degrading and insulting. Stupid, I know. It's the internet. "Don't get too excited" is what my parents always said come Christmas. Words to live by, I suppose.
[Note: I'm glad I tuned out, it seems to have devolved to pretty personal attacks from people on the internet. Maybe I should post cat pictures? Those seem to calm the internet masses.]
There I described it as being between 2 and 3 years but starting out with a five figure savings (more accurate if you deem it beginning when I discovered ERE, but makes the math harder). Not sure if that colored the discourse against me, although I imagine it did.
Looking back (and even at the time I knew) I made a _classic_ mistake of caring what people on the internet think. So towards the end of when I paid attention I made some comments about the "if you think I'm a troll then stop talking to me". Seems like solid advice to me, but it might have been taken poorly, based on how the conversation progressed from that point on. But seriously, it hurt my feelings that the only feedback was degrading and insulting. Stupid, I know. It's the internet. "Don't get too excited" is what my parents always said come Christmas. Words to live by, I suppose.
[Note: I'm glad I tuned out, it seems to have devolved to pretty personal attacks from people on the internet. Maybe I should post cat pictures? Those seem to calm the internet masses.]
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secretwealth
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George the original one
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