Who'd a thunk it? Obamacare not repealed

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OTCW
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Re: Who'd a thunk it? Obamacare not repealed

Post by OTCW » Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:07 am

In my state, there are more opioid prescriptions than there are people. Need to fix that kind of thing, plus obesity, sedentary lifestyle, type 2 diabetes, junk fueled diets, smoking, etc in order to fix healthcare IMO. What the national debate is centered on now is who pays for our health insurance.

I don't think we aren't discussing anything that will lead to an improvement in actual health, but politicians can easily see what side of the line they want to be on by gaging reaction to who they suggest pays for what.

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BRUTE
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Re: Who'd a thunk it? Obamacare not repealed

Post by BRUTE » Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:52 am

opioid prescriptions are not the problem - resulting crime and overdoses are. that's easy to fix by legalizing opioids. it'll be super cheap, almost no humans will die because it'll be pure because it'll be cheap, almost no crime resulting because it'll be cheap and won't empower the local criminals who're currently dealing it.

smoking and metabolic syndrome are much harder to fix, because they're cultural problems with lots of momentum.

brute agrees that "who pays for it" does almost nothing to improve the situation.

it's a side effect of a 4 year election cycle. it does not pay off for politicians to fix anything in the long run, all they can benefit from must happen within 4 years. changing a culture of nutrition took several generations of heavy lobbying and law making and propaganda. it's not going to reverse over night - or within 4 years.

Laura Ingalls
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Re: Who'd a thunk it? Obamacare not repealed

Post by Laura Ingalls » Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:21 pm

BRUTE wrote:
Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:52 am
opioid prescriptions are not the problem - resulting crime and overdoses are. that's easy to fix by legalizing opioids. it'll be super cheap, almost no humans will die because it'll be pure because it'll be cheap, almost no crime resulting because it'll be cheap and won't empower the local criminals who're currently dealing it.

smoking and metabolic syndrome are much harder to fix, because they're cultural problems with lots of momentum.

brute agrees that "who pays for it" does almost nothing to improve the situation.

it's a side effect of a 4 year election cycle. it does not pay off for politicians to fix anything in the long run, all they can benefit from must happen within 4 years. changing a culture of nutrition took several generations of heavy lobbying and law making and propaganda. it's not going to reverse over night - or within 4 years.
Alcoholics and Opiod abusers both cost the culture plenty. Drunks can be constantly loaded on $15 of cheap vodka a day. Legalize heroin and making it cheap won't make the addicted functional and it doesn't seem to have social users

OTCW
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Re: Who'd a thunk it? Obamacare not repealed

Post by OTCW » Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:55 pm

For the record, I was talking about legal (prescription) opioids. And there is a legitimate place for them, but abuse leads to addiction. Pill mills are a big part of the problem. Not trying to start an debate over opioid use, but when prescriptions for it are that out of control, there is a definite cost factor that shouldn't exist that affects the price of overall healthcare. Only point I was making. The other societal costs are probably for another debate.

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BRUTE
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Re: Who'd a thunk it? Obamacare not repealed

Post by BRUTE » Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:21 pm

legal opioids are extremely expensive - because they're so restricted. users end up falling back on the illegal ones for cost reasons, which is where it becomes dangerous, because they're cut and are easy to overdose on.

most opioid users are completely functional, just as most alcoholics are. and heroin would be at $15/lbs if it were legal - it's a plant that can be industrially grown on fields. almost zero cost to society absent prohibition, certainly less than smoking or alcohol, which are way more unhealthy even in pure forms.

OTCW
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Re: Who'd a thunk it? Obamacare not repealed

Post by OTCW » Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:31 pm

They aren't too expensive if your insurance covers them. Just makes insurance more expensive for everybody so that addicted folks can get a buzz and can go to insurance covered rehab. Just pointing out part of the reason for costs going up/health going down.

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BRUTE
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Re: Who'd a thunk it? Obamacare not repealed

Post by BRUTE » Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:03 pm

sure, but the easiest solution is to lift prohibition and make the addiction affordable.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Who'd a thunk it? Obamacare not repealed

Post by classical_Liberal » Sat Apr 15, 2017 11:53 pm

Legalization and the subsequent price drop of opioids would also eliminate the very real, very large cost of ER's flooded with addicts attempting to get a fix from the medical stuff. Not to mention reduction in the medical costs for treatment centers, most of whom serve a populace who does not want to quit the addition, rather are forced into the medical system unwillingly.

IlliniDave
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Re: Who'd a thunk it? Obamacare not repealed

Post by IlliniDave » Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:01 am

Many of them are also forced into the prison system. My family has had to deal with opium-derived addiction and it's consequences. On the surface addiction is not what I'd call a good thing, but our culture makes it a lot worse through our stubborn attempts to make it go away. I have to suspect that legislating mandatory healthy diet/lifestyle in an attempt to "fix" healthcare costs would largely result in the same: ultimately a far higher cost, both in dollars and otherwise.

Stahlmann
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Re: Who'd a thunk it? Obamacare not repealed

Post by Stahlmann » Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:04 am

BRUTE wrote:
Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:21 pm
legal opioids are extremely expensive - because they're so restricted. users end up falling back on the illegal ones for cost reasons, which is where it becomes dangerous, because they're cut and are easy to overdose on.

most opioid users are completely functional, just as most alcoholics are. and heroin would be at $15/lbs if it were legal - it's a plant that can be industrially grown on fields. almost zero cost to society absent prohibition, certainly less than smoking or alcohol, which are way more unhealthy even in pure forms.
Are you sure about possible negative effects of opoids?
I think they are no 1 in every research in terms of personal/social harm.

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BRUTE
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Re: Who'd a thunk it? Obamacare not repealed

Post by BRUTE » Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:05 am

Stahlmann wrote:
Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:04 am
Are you sure about possible negative effects of opoids?
I think they are no 1 in every research in terms of personal/social harm.
brute used to quote the wiki article on heroin side effects, because it just used to say "constipation". now it's been updated to this:
Wikipedia wrote:Common side effects include respiratory depression (decreased breathing) and about a quarter of those who use heroin become physically dependent. Other side effects can include abscesses, infected heart valves, blood borne infections, constipation, and pneumonia.
respiratory depression is dangerous if combined with alcohol, which is why opioids should never be combined with it or other drugs. education is key here to prevent accidental overdose.

the abscesses and infections are simply a side effect of unclean needle use. needles are cheap, and some cities even have free needle exchange programs that would easily prevent this.

constipation, on the other hand, still has to be dealt with.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Who'd a thunk it? Obamacare not repealed

Post by classical_Liberal » Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:13 pm

BRUTE wrote:
Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:05 am
constipation, on the other hand, still has to be dealt with.
How many carbs in prunes?

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BRUTE
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Re: Who'd a thunk it? Obamacare not repealed

Post by BRUTE » Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:09 pm

all of it is carbs. and they're not really good for digestion. like most fiber, they mostly push out shit by adding more shit to the whole pipeline - creating new constipation. classical_Liberal would be well advised not to fall into the "more shit is better" trap, it's untrue. more shit is just more shit. uneducated humans confuse constipation with not shitting a lot. the goal isn't to shit a lot. the goal is to shit well.

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