Climate Change!

Should you squeeze the toothpaste tube in the middle or from the end?
steveo73
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Re: Climate Change!

Postby steveo73 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:45 pm

Gilberto - I really don't think that the fossil rule industry are politicising this debate or if they are they are doing a really terrible job of it.

There is overwhelming political pressure to comply with the current acceptable political viewpoint of climate change alarmism. Just look at this thread. Look at the facts that are presented and the political arguments that are utilised.

This is clearly a political debate with the pro-alarmist viewpoint being shoved down everyone's throats. The political pressure on that side is about 10 billion to one. It's where the money is.

ducknalddon
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Re: Climate Change!

Postby ducknalddon » Sun Feb 12, 2017 3:06 am

@steveo hasn't your city just had it's hotest day on record?

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Re: Climate Change!

Postby Solvent » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:57 am

steveo73 wrote:Gilberto - I really don't think that the fossil rule industry are politicising this debate or if they are they are doing a really terrible job of it.

There is overwhelming political pressure to comply with the current acceptable political viewpoint of climate change alarmism. Just look at this thread. Look at the facts that are presented and the political arguments that are utilised.

This is clearly a political debate with the pro-alarmist viewpoint being shoved down everyone's throats. The political pressure on that side is about 10 billion to one. It's where the money is.

Given that the Treasurer in Australia's Government just brought a lump of coal to the House of Reps and told everyone to admire it, there seems to be a lot of dissonance between your opinion and reality steveo.

steveo73
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Re: Climate Change!

Postby steveo73 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 3:57 pm

I think clearly anyone stating that the predominant political viewpoint isn't pro-alarmist AGW suffers from a massive amount of cognitive dissonance. In Australia we even have prime ministers boldly stating that AGW is a fact and making fun at anyone who speaks up against the predominant socially accepted viewpoint.
Last edited by steveo73 on Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

steveo73
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Re: Climate Change!

Postby steveo73 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:08 pm

ducknalddon wrote:@steveo hasn't your city just had it's hotest day on record?


I don't know if this is the case but it's definitely been hot.

Here is the interesting point - no knowledgeable person would state that this is because of AGW. If anyone believes that it is I suggest that you realise that person does not have an understanding of climate including the greenhouse effect at all.

I can't wait for the day when we can discuss this topic without the poor arguments that the pro AGW crowd seem to love. I think I'll be waiting a long long time.

ducknalddon
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Re: Climate Change!

Postby ducknalddon » Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:40 pm

steveo73 wrote:Here is the interesting point - no knowledgeable person would state that this is because of AGW.


Nobody did, I just thought it was an interesting point.

ducknalddon
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Re: Climate Change!

Postby ducknalddon » Mon Feb 13, 2017 1:49 pm

steveo73 wrote:I can't wait for the day when we can discuss this topic without the poor arguments that the pro AGW crowd seem to love. I think I'll be waiting a long long time.


That works both ways, we have heard plenty of assertions from you but no facts. Meanwhile the evidence is available if you are open to it.

steveo73
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Re: Climate Change!

Postby steveo73 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:16 pm

Go read this thread. I've given a tonne of facts. This argument doesn't cut it anymore. It's actually pretty one sided. I get political arguments against what I state.

The evidence that you state is not one sided and you need to start recognising the complexity of the issue. When that starts happening it will be a lot lot easier to discuss the topic because we will be on a firmer footing. The over the top confidence that AGW is proven and we are heading towards the Earth being destroyed is nonsense.

George the original one
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Re: Climate Change!

Postby George the original one » Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:23 pm

Meanwhile the wildfires continue to burn, fueled by ever hotter temperatures and drier summer seasons.

Campitor
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Re: Climate Change!

Postby Campitor » Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:55 pm

steveo73 wrote:The over the top confidence that AGW is proven and we are heading towards the Earth being destroyed is nonsense.


I'm not worried about the Earth being destroyed. Earth has survived countless asteroid impacts and 5 major extinction events. It's humans that I'm worried about. Regardless if you believe in AGW or not, there is no denying that we are slowly but surely poisoning ourselves with the amount of pollutants we keep pumping out. I'd like clean energy because I love fresh air and smog free skies. I want less mercury in the ocean and beaches that don't coat your toes in petroleum if you sink your feet into the sand. I want to walk into a forest and not see plastic bags floating on trees or smell excrement on the tide because the waste facility was overwhelmed with flash flooding and had to dump raw sewage into the ocean. I'm sure there are lots of financial interests that want to see the AGW money wagon pick up speed. But you don't have to believe in AGW to see the worldwide distress that we as humans are inflicting on ourselves and other species. We don't need AGW as a reason to reduce emissions of every kind.

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Gilberto de Piento
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Re: Climate Change!

Postby Gilberto de Piento » Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:33 pm

I'm not worried about the Earth being destroyed. Earth has survived countless asteroid impacts and 5 major extinction events. It's humans that I'm worried about. Regardless if you believe in AGW or not, there is no denying that we are slowly but surely poisoning ourselves with the amount of pollutants we keep pumping out. I'd like clean energy because I love fresh air and smog free skies. I want less mercury in the ocean and beaches that don't coat your toes in petroleum if you sink your feet into the sand. I want to walk into a forest and not see plastic bags floating on trees or smell excrement on the tide because the waste facility was overwhelmed with flash flooding and had to dump raw sewage into the ocean. I'm sure there are lots of financial interests that want to see the AGW money wagon pick up speed. But you don't have to believe in AGW to see the worldwide distress that we as humans are inflicting on ourselves and other species. We don't need AGW as a reason to reduce emissions of every kind.


Well said.

ducknalddon
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Re: Climate Change!

Postby ducknalddon » Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:57 am

steveo73 wrote:Go read this thread. I've given a tonne of facts. This argument doesn't cut it anymore. It's actually pretty one sided. I get political arguments against what I state.


I've read the whole thread, all I've seen you post are vague assertions, links to dodgy Youtube videos and calling people alarmists.

The evidence that you state is not one sided and you need to start recognising the complexity of the issue. When that starts happening it will be a lot lot easier to discuss the topic because we will be on a firmer footing. The over the top confidence that AGW is proven and we are heading towards the Earth being destroyed is nonsense.


Nobody in this thread said the Earth is going to be destroyed.

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cmonkey
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Re: Climate Change!

Postby cmonkey » Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:06 am

Gilberto de Piento wrote:
I'm not worried about the Earth being destroyed. Earth has survived countless asteroid impacts and 5 major extinction events. It's humans that I'm worried about. Regardless if you believe in AGW or not, there is no denying that we are slowly but surely poisoning ourselves with the amount of pollutants we keep pumping out. I'd like clean energy because I love fresh air and smog free skies. I want less mercury in the ocean and beaches that don't coat your toes in petroleum if you sink your feet into the sand. I want to walk into a forest and not see plastic bags floating on trees or smell excrement on the tide because the waste facility was overwhelmed with flash flooding and had to dump raw sewage into the ocean. I'm sure there are lots of financial interests that want to see the AGW money wagon pick up speed. But you don't have to believe in AGW to see the worldwide distress that we as humans are inflicting on ourselves and other species. We don't need AGW as a reason to reduce emissions of every kind.


Well said.


+1 I am not concerned about the Earth at all for all the stated reasons.

What we are doing to the planet is bad for the ecosystem, but the worst of it will hit human systems. The dam situation in California is a good example. It's terrible for us, but just an inconvenience for nature. How this all affects you personally depends on how (in)dependent you are on human systems (financial, physical and emotional).

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Gilberto de Piento
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Re: Climate Change!

Postby Gilberto de Piento » Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:41 am

One thing that isn't considered in the view above is that plants and animals are currently undergoing another major extinction, one which is caused by humans: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction.

We can argue that the geology of the earth isn't particularly damaged by people and will recover when we are gone but these species are going extinct, never to return. There is no recovery from extinction. Even if a person doesn't care about plants and animals it's important to consider that when these species go extinct they take with them any uses that we could obtain from their genetic material such as cures for diseases.

steveo73
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Re: Climate Change!

Postby steveo73 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:08 pm

[quote="ducknalddon

You really need to read this thread again. People believe that we are doing damage to the Earth and putting humankind and I assume other animals at risk. Go watch and read a bunch of the links that I provided. Go and educate yourself on the topic.

Anyone who is a AGW climate change alarmist has no understanding of the current state of the science of this topic. It's easy to rectify that by reading through a bunch of the links that I provided. If you still feel uneducated let me know and I will help you understand the topic a lot better.

steveo73
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Re: Climate Change!

Postby steveo73 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:13 pm

[quote="Campitor

Relax. Stop buying into the theory that humans are somehow bad. We aren't.

I personally also believe in other environmental issues such as not polluting our local environments but there isn't a massive problem here. If you are though an environmentalist like myself I think you should realise that the local issues tend to occur in poorer locations. The best way to help these locations is to ensure that they get the chance to economically progress. This is a really good reason why we need to stop all this AGW crap. We want the poorer countries to develop. As countries develop they tend to care more about their local environments.
Last edited by steveo73 on Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

steveo73
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Re: Climate Change!

Postby steveo73 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:13 pm

Gilberto de Piento wrote:One thing that isn't considered in the view above is that plants and animals are currently undergoing another major extinction, one which is caused by humans: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction.

We can argue that the geology of the earth isn't particularly damaged by people and will recover when we are gone but these species are going extinct, never to return. There is no recovery from extinction. Even if a person doesn't care about plants and animals it's important to consider that when these species go extinct they take with them any uses that we could obtain from their genetic material such as cures for diseases.


Yep. Like they have in the past and they will in the future. It's called nature.

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C40
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Re: Climate Change!

Postby C40 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:30 pm

I think I might start a drinking game:

One drink each whenever Steveo says:
~~'If your opinion is different than mine, you're wrong/have no understanding/etc.'
~~ Watch the Youtube videos I linked
~~ Reread the things I linked to until you agree

And Two drinks for any new thread participant who tries to convince Steveo

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Re: Climate Change!

Postby Ontarian » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:30 pm

HA! Great idea C40! Back to my lurking...

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Kriegsspiel
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Re: Climate Change!

Postby Kriegsspiel » Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:36 pm

:lol: top notch.

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Gilberto de Piento
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Re: Climate Change!

Postby Gilberto de Piento » Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:47 pm

How about when he:
- Cites a Dr. so and so that no one has ever heard of and only Ted Cruz takes seriously?
- Says anecdotal evidence doesn't count because we should be using the scientific method but then refuses to use science himself?
- Links to a blogspot site that says we shouldn't worry about climate change but should buy gold because of the Bilderberg Group?

I could use a drink right about now. Steveo, how about this Australian heat wave? It's getting awfully hot down there. Might that be global warming?

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/feb/10/australias-heatwave-continues-with-record-temperatures-expected

steveo73
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Re: Climate Change!

Postby steveo73 » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:16 pm

Gilberto de Piento wrote:How about when he:
- Cites a Dr. so and so that no one has ever heard of and only Ted Cruz takes seriously?
- Says anecdotal evidence doesn't count because we should be using the scientific method but then refuses to use science himself?
- Links to a blogspot site that says we shouldn't worry about climate change but should buy gold because of the Bilderberg Group?

I could use a drink right about now. Steveo, how about this Australian heat wave? It's getting awfully hot down there. Might that be global warming?

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/feb/10/australias-heatwave-continues-with-record-temperatures-expected


Pretty funny. So we are back to the ad-hominem attacks. I get it - when the facts don't fit your beliefs just resort to the good old ad-hominem argument. Top stuff fellas. The good thing about the scientific method is that all of this stuff sort of disappears if we are being honest. I suggest you re-read the thread and try and provide me with proof of AGW and to be more specific alarmist AGW. A simple one would be to articulate why the models are running hot and the predictions aren't working out. If you put this into simple terms - the observed data (even though it is poor) is not conforming to the theory. If this was any other subject that ends the discussion. Try to make it a good source even though that isn't available.

I'll give a hint - it's basically impossible to prove alarmist AGW. There isn't good enough data and the science is a long long long way from being clear enough to state that there is an issue. I think you could state that AGW is occurring but the effect appears to be mild and not something to concern yourself with at this time.

I said earlier that only someone with no idea at all would state that a hot Australian summer is due to global warming. It has nothing at all to do with global warming.

Interestingly I spoke to my brother yesterday. He is a lawyer and he said that all the drama regarding emissions trading that was at one point big is now fading away completely. So thank god that we are slowly moving away from the anecdotal evidence supporting AGW that is so prevalent within this thread.

Mind you if you come to Australia I'm happy to shout a beer or 20.

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Gilberto de Piento
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Re: Climate Change!

Postby Gilberto de Piento » Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:49 pm

Mind you if you come to Australia I'm happy to shout a beer or 20.


If I was in Australia I'd be happy to buy you a beer too, and, you know what, we'd probably end up arguing about this stuff but it wouldn't be so bad and we'd end up friends. At least that's how it usually goes for me.

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BRUTE
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Re: Climate Change!

Postby BRUTE » Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:21 am

Gilberto de Piento wrote:Steveo, how about this Australian heat wave? It's getting awfully hot down there. Might that be global warming?


Gilberto de Piento seems to be confusing climate with weather..

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Re: Climate Change!

Postby Aurane » Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:50 am

I found this neat little site which represents some different data (temp., Arctic ice sea volume, CO2 levels) in spirals. Seems like a great way to represent the data.
http://www.climate-lab-book.ac.uk/spirals/

---
My lecturer (he is part of a Ice and Climate group) in Thermodynamics here at the university gave us all an informal talk about the Arctic sea ice levels, and how they are changing drastically now (we saw plenty of data, including satellite photos). I wish everyone were there to see it as well.. to summarise, there is a very high probability that this year, or within the next few years that the north pole will become completely ice free (first time in 100'000 years). This removes the 'buffer' the ice sea provides against temperature rise during the summer around the north pole.. without this ice, the temperature in the Arctic will not be mitigated by the sea ice, so it is quite probable that Greenland's ice sheet will start melting to a greater degree.. and since this ice is from land, it will increase the sea levels. It doesn't look good.


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