The Trump Problem (the real one)

Intended for constructive conversations. Exhibits of polarizing tribalism will be deleted.
Dragline
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by Dragline »

Riggerjack wrote:
Still, he sure beats that dying small town drum. Is it only in the PNW that small towns are still growing?
Pretty much. Here's the recent data: http://www.ers.usda.gov/media/1952235/eib145.pdf

Unless someone brings in a casino to the area. When I drive by places like Charles Town, West Virginia, you can see where they have built the new housing developments and school just outside town.

I also spent some time in New Mexico last summer. I learned that one of the reasons Gary Johnson got elected was by supporting casinos, which garnered him a lot of Native American support. Now almost every single Pueblo has a casino, and it's the newest, shiniest building in most towns. I was told that you can now identify Pueblos as distinct from just towns by whether there is a casino there or not.

Dragline
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by Dragline »

GandK wrote:
I quite stupidly got sucked into a debate about Trump on Facebook yesterday. I came away both extremely thankful for all of you, and a little fearful that I'd lost a few IQ points by electronic osmosis. :oops:
Danger! Danger! Inane debate ahead!

Was it like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQCU36pkH7c

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GandK
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by GandK »

Dragline wrote:Was it like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQCU36pkH7c
I wish. My "opponent," and I use the term very loosely, seems to have been the sort of man who only comprehends the first third or so of any remark and jumps to questionable conclusions about the remainder. He also seems to have memorized the names of all the logical fallacies at one point, but has no recollection of what they actually mean:

K: I am concerned that certain people on the left are simultaneously saying that all of the WikiLeaks documents are fake, and that Russia hacked them from Podesta illegally... yet few citizens seem to notice the inconsistency in those two positions.

Him (friend of my friend): Trump supporters like you who watch Faux News always blame the left! The documents have not been authenticated. You are cherry picking.

K: ? All I said was that those two positions are incompatible. If Podesta truly was hacked by Russia, then actual documents have been stolen.

Him: How are those positions incompatible? Russia could have made the whole thing up just to throw the election. You and everyone else who watches Faux News all day are just introducing straw men.

K: What??? And who said I watch Fox at all? And if you're right, and Russia did fabricate all the documents, then they were not hacked from Podesta.

Him: No, there was A HACK. It's all over every news site! YOU are clearly not reading the news and are just hopping on the bandwagon here.

K: I'm... speechless.

My friend commented to him then, quite sensibly, and I withdrew in confusion and fear that this man is my fellow citizen and I think it very likely that he will cast a vote come November, assuming that he can figure out how to operate the voting machine.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

@GandK: "...yet few citizens seem to notice the inconsistency in those two positions."

Acknowledging such contradictions would constitute thoughtcrime. ;)

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GandK
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by GandK »

@Spartan

Well, in theory the hacked documents could have been altered after the fact, which is perhaps the original argument upon which his second order (at least) opinions were based. Were I in a rational debate I would have said as much, but I'm sure in this case that would have made me No True Scotsman, whereupon I would have lost my temper and started swearing. And that would've rendered me a Texas Sharpshooter, no doubt. Then he would have won the argument in both his mind and mine, seeing as how violence is not possible on Facebook.
Last edited by GandK on Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Spartan_Warrior
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

Haha, that's exactly right. They could have been altered after the fact, that is the only obvious way to reconcile the contradiction. Of course, the response to that is Wikileaks' 100% vetting record, the DNC not actually denying any of it and in fact taking action (firing DWS, etc) as a result of their revelations, Clinton implicitly confirming the emails' accuracy in her response to one of the debate questions about it, etc. The claim that the emails are inaccurate/altered appears to be as unsupported as the claim that a Russian hack is the source. But I digress.

IlliniDave
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by IlliniDave »

What I've learned about a few of my acquaintances out there: if it's not reported on MSNBC, it never happened. If it's reported differently than on MSNBC, it is falsified.

enigmaT120
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by enigmaT120 »

Only trust The Onion.

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jennypenny
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by jennypenny »

Tangentially related article about the divide between rural and urban communities ... http://www.resilience.org/stories/2016- ... in-america

Is the 'fix' really that almost everyone should move to urban areas? Is that really best?

BRUTE
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by BRUTE »

"move" is probably more of a metaphor these days. as has been indicated, a farmer who doesn't have work in the countryside likely won't find work in the city. the reason urban areas are drawing more and more economic power is because the jobs that pay well these days tend to profit from large communities/network effects in the area, and thus the humans who go for these jobs move to cities.

the point being that if humans sit on their metaphorical ass and complain about how great things used to be, they likely won't get much sympathy.

7Wannabe5
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

jennypenny said: Is the 'fix' really that almost everyone should move to urban areas? Is that really best?
Very interesting chart in the article you linked. Of course, my notion of a best "fix" would be more urban-located micro-farmers and more rural-located creative tech micro-firms.

Riggerjack
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by Riggerjack »

So, there has been a bunch of bashing if the people who stay in economically depressed areas. Small towns, specifically.

I'm wondering if those that feel this way, feel the same about native Americans, staying on the the reservation, where economic options are often limited.

And if not, why not?

IlliniDave
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by IlliniDave »

jennypenny wrote:Tangentially related article about the divide between rural and urban communities ... http://www.resilience.org/stories/2016- ... in-america

Is the 'fix' really that almost everyone should move to urban areas? Is that really best?
I'm all for it--more peace and solitude in the places I want to live.

BRUTE
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by BRUTE »

Riggerjack wrote:I'm wondering if those that feel this way, feel the same about native Americans, staying on the the reservation, where economic options are often limited.
what way is that? brute wouldn't say he's "bashing" those humans. it's their life and their choice. but if they prefer poverty & living in the past to changing their ways & making more money, they shouldn't be surprised if brute doesn't care much for their poverty problem. doesn't matter if they're native or white trash.

Dragline
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by Dragline »

Riggerjack wrote:So, there has been a bunch of bashing if the people who stay in economically depressed areas. Small towns, specifically.

I'm wondering if those that feel this way, feel the same about native Americans, staying on the the reservation, where economic options are often limited.

And if not, why not?
Yes, I do think it's a bad idea that too many of them stay in those places. I don't think tying people to lands has done them much good, except for some special rights in tax free sales and casinos. It was one of those "seemed like a good idea at the time" things that has not panned out.

It's a very good example of the problem, actually. They should be paying their young people to leave and then give/pay them back when they are able.

But this situation is historically more complex from the average American in that they were moved off other lands to designated places.

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Ego
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by Ego »

jennypenny wrote: Is the 'fix' really that almost everyone should move to urban areas? Is that really best?
When I say move, what I mean by that is that if there is no way to make money in the place where they are, they need to move to a place where they can make money. They may not need to physically move at all. In fact, I imagine if someone was as skilled at editing as you are, they could do it from almost anywhere. But if they don't have the skills or connections then they have to go out and find them.

I think part of the problem is that many who are suffering are in multi-generational trades (mining, factory work, agriculture, military) where their parents and grandparents worked the job before them. In short, the job came to them. They were born into it. It is more than a job. It is a way of life. When those opportunities dry up, it is more than a job loss. It is like a death.

The bigger problem (I believe) is the inherent cognitive dissonance that causes the rage we see. Trump supporters are the kind of people who believe quite strongly in the up-by-your-bootstraps ethic. They talked the talk for generations, all the while being ensconced in the protective cocoons of their trades. The cocoons have been shed. Here is their opportunity to walk the talk.

This is precisely the reason we induce major change in our lives every few years.

Chad
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by Chad »


vezkor
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by vezkor »

It's from a site that is typically a comedy site, but I thought this was particularly well written and relevant to this thread:

http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reasons-t ... -about_p2/

bryan
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by bryan »

Maybe another real problem is the shift of the 3 branches of government towards the red side of the aisle. This could be a serious issue, granted I don't think it is quite there yet and I'm sure in 2018, 2020 things will shift hard back to the blue side.

Yoinking from another thread:
OTCW wrote:I can't help but think of the parallel of folks buying guns when Obama was elected because they were convinced he was going to outlaw them. We have a balance of power system with three parts that has served us incredibly well. We'll be just fine this time too.
https://twitter.com/marcportermagee/sta ... 4788379648
Democrats now control only 13 state legislatures (26%). If they lose 1 more they fall below the % needed to stop constitutional amendments.
and also the fact that amendment proposals can come straight from the states (66%) and not congress.

Almost being able to amend the constitution without the typical opposition is a pretty big chink in the balance of power armor; especially considering the majority of the voting populace supported one candidate and the opposite party ended up controlling the three branches.

JamesR
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Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by JamesR »

I wanted to share this. http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16/yo ... ying-wolf/ big counterpoint to media calling trump a racist.


Feel free to lock this thread too. Politics is probably getting old hat for ERE.. back to more important things ;)

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