The Trump Problem (the real one)

Should you squeeze the toothpaste tube in the middle or from the end?
User avatar
Ego
Posts: 3806
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:42 am

Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by Ego » Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:51 am

I get the feeling this problem would be solved if we could sit people down with their grandparents or great-grandparents - the first immigrants in their family - and give them a dose of America 101.

From our founding we have been a country that gave people the choice to adapt to change or not. If you refuse to adapt then you and only you will suffer the consequences.

Move. Evolve. Float with the tide or get swamped. Immigrants know this intuitively. It is part of their DNA. No, that's not right. It is part of OUR DNA.

Trumpers are screaming at the government to STOP CHANGE NOW. They don't want change and they refuse to accept the consequences.

America 101. We don't work that way. That's why I think maybe the best solution - and the most compassionate solution - is no solution at all. Otherwise we are creating the firefighting trap where we placate the loudest whiners and allow them to grow in strength.

User avatar
Riggerjack
Posts: 1465
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 am

Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by Riggerjack » Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:39 am

A problem has to be defined before it can be solved. I thought this was an interesting (mostly pro-Trump) take on the Trumpers perspective from an unlikely source. The presentation is annoying but his explanation of why Trump is still rising is interesting.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reasons-t ... lks-about/
Good article. It covered rural racism in a way that matches my experience. The only people I have ever known to do or say anything offensively racist (which i will define as acting or saying stupid things in the presence of the subject of such stupidity.) were city folk, or excons.

All the other racists I've ever known, were fine with the examples they knew, but wouldn't go to that side of town, etc. In fact, if they were to ACT in a prejudiced way, I would expect it to be religion based, rather than race based.

Still, he sure beats that dying small town drum. Is it only in the PNW that small towns are still growing?

User avatar
GandK
Posts: 1852
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:00 pm

Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by GandK » Wed Oct 19, 2016 1:17 pm

No. My hometown in Kentucky is growing. That said, it's in a tourist area, and most places in greater Appalachia are not destination spots.

I quite stupidly got sucked into a debate about Trump on Facebook yesterday. I came away both extremely thankful for all of you, and a little fearful that I'd lost a few IQ points by electronic osmosis. :oops:

User avatar
Dragline
Posts: 4116
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:50 am

Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by Dragline » Wed Oct 19, 2016 1:24 pm

Riggerjack wrote:
Still, he sure beats that dying small town drum. Is it only in the PNW that small towns are still growing?
Pretty much. Here's the recent data: http://www.ers.usda.gov/media/1952235/eib145.pdf

Unless someone brings in a casino to the area. When I drive by places like Charles Town, West Virginia, you can see where they have built the new housing developments and school just outside town.

I also spent some time in New Mexico last summer. I learned that one of the reasons Gary Johnson got elected was by supporting casinos, which garnered him a lot of Native American support. Now almost every single Pueblo has a casino, and it's the newest, shiniest building in most towns. I was told that you can now identify Pueblos as distinct from just towns by whether there is a casino there or not.

User avatar
Dragline
Posts: 4116
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:50 am

Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by Dragline » Wed Oct 19, 2016 1:54 pm

GandK wrote:
I quite stupidly got sucked into a debate about Trump on Facebook yesterday. I came away both extremely thankful for all of you, and a little fearful that I'd lost a few IQ points by electronic osmosis. :oops:
Danger! Danger! Inane debate ahead!

Was it like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQCU36pkH7c

User avatar
GandK
Posts: 1852
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:00 pm

Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by GandK » Wed Oct 19, 2016 2:36 pm

Dragline wrote:Was it like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQCU36pkH7c
I wish. My "opponent," and I use the term very loosely, seems to have been the sort of man who only comprehends the first third or so of any remark and jumps to questionable conclusions about the remainder. He also seems to have memorized the names of all the logical fallacies at one point, but has no recollection of what they actually mean:

K: I am concerned that certain people on the left are simultaneously saying that all of the WikiLeaks documents are fake, and that Russia hacked them from Podesta illegally... yet few citizens seem to notice the inconsistency in those two positions.

Him (friend of my friend): Trump supporters like you who watch Faux News always blame the left! The documents have not been authenticated. You are cherry picking.

K: ? All I said was that those two positions are incompatible. If Podesta truly was hacked by Russia, then actual documents have been stolen.

Him: How are those positions incompatible? Russia could have made the whole thing up just to throw the election. You and everyone else who watches Faux News all day are just introducing straw men.

K: What??? And who said I watch Fox at all? And if you're right, and Russia did fabricate all the documents, then they were not hacked from Podesta.

Him: No, there was A HACK. It's all over every news site! YOU are clearly not reading the news and are just hopping on the bandwagon here.

K: I'm... speechless.

My friend commented to him then, quite sensibly, and I withdrew in confusion and fear that this man is my fellow citizen and I think it very likely that he will cast a vote come November, assuming that he can figure out how to operate the voting machine.

Spartan_Warrior
Posts: 1548
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:24 am

Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by Spartan_Warrior » Wed Oct 19, 2016 3:03 pm

@GandK: "...yet few citizens seem to notice the inconsistency in those two positions."

Acknowledging such contradictions would constitute thoughtcrime. ;)

User avatar
GandK
Posts: 1852
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:00 pm

Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by GandK » Wed Oct 19, 2016 3:20 pm

@Spartan

Well, in theory the hacked documents could have been altered after the fact, which is perhaps the original argument upon which his second order (at least) opinions were based. Were I in a rational debate I would have said as much, but I'm sure in this case that would have made me No True Scotsman, whereupon I would have lost my temper and started swearing. And that would've rendered me a Texas Sharpshooter, no doubt. Then he would have won the argument in both his mind and mine, seeing as how violence is not possible on Facebook.
Last edited by GandK on Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Spartan_Warrior
Posts: 1548
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:24 am

Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by Spartan_Warrior » Wed Oct 19, 2016 3:41 pm

Haha, that's exactly right. They could have been altered after the fact, that is the only obvious way to reconcile the contradiction. Of course, the response to that is Wikileaks' 100% vetting record, the DNC not actually denying any of it and in fact taking action (firing DWS, etc) as a result of their revelations, Clinton implicitly confirming the emails' accuracy in her response to one of the debate questions about it, etc. The claim that the emails are inaccurate/altered appears to be as unsupported as the claim that a Russian hack is the source. But I digress.

IlliniDave
Posts: 1425
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:46 pm

Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by IlliniDave » Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:18 pm

What I've learned about a few of my acquaintances out there: if it's not reported on MSNBC, it never happened. If it's reported differently than on MSNBC, it is falsified.

enigmaT120
Posts: 819
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:14 pm
Location: Falls City, OR

Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by enigmaT120 » Wed Oct 19, 2016 9:28 pm

Only trust The Onion.

User avatar
jennypenny
Posts: 5111
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm
Location: Stepford USA

Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by jennypenny » Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:22 pm

Tangentially related article about the divide between rural and urban communities ... http://www.resilience.org/stories/2016- ... in-america

Is the 'fix' really that almost everyone should move to urban areas? Is that really best?

User avatar
BRUTE
Posts: 2006
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:20 pm

Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by BRUTE » Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:50 pm

"move" is probably more of a metaphor these days. as has been indicated, a farmer who doesn't have work in the countryside likely won't find work in the city. the reason urban areas are drawing more and more economic power is because the jobs that pay well these days tend to profit from large communities/network effects in the area, and thus the humans who go for these jobs move to cities.

the point being that if humans sit on their metaphorical ass and complain about how great things used to be, they likely won't get much sympathy.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 2429
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:22 pm

jennypenny said: Is the 'fix' really that almost everyone should move to urban areas? Is that really best?
Very interesting chart in the article you linked. Of course, my notion of a best "fix" would be more urban-located micro-farmers and more rural-located creative tech micro-firms.

User avatar
Riggerjack
Posts: 1465
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 am

Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by Riggerjack » Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:29 pm

So, there has been a bunch of bashing if the people who stay in economically depressed areas. Small towns, specifically.

I'm wondering if those that feel this way, feel the same about native Americans, staying on the the reservation, where economic options are often limited.

And if not, why not?

IlliniDave
Posts: 1425
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:46 pm

Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by IlliniDave » Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:14 pm

jennypenny wrote:Tangentially related article about the divide between rural and urban communities ... http://www.resilience.org/stories/2016- ... in-america

Is the 'fix' really that almost everyone should move to urban areas? Is that really best?
I'm all for it--more peace and solitude in the places I want to live.

User avatar
BRUTE
Posts: 2006
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:20 pm

Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by BRUTE » Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:47 pm

Riggerjack wrote:I'm wondering if those that feel this way, feel the same about native Americans, staying on the the reservation, where economic options are often limited.
what way is that? brute wouldn't say he's "bashing" those humans. it's their life and their choice. but if they prefer poverty & living in the past to changing their ways & making more money, they shouldn't be surprised if brute doesn't care much for their poverty problem. doesn't matter if they're native or white trash.

User avatar
Dragline
Posts: 4116
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:50 am

Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by Dragline » Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:42 pm

Riggerjack wrote:So, there has been a bunch of bashing if the people who stay in economically depressed areas. Small towns, specifically.

I'm wondering if those that feel this way, feel the same about native Americans, staying on the the reservation, where economic options are often limited.

And if not, why not?
Yes, I do think it's a bad idea that too many of them stay in those places. I don't think tying people to lands has done them much good, except for some special rights in tax free sales and casinos. It was one of those "seemed like a good idea at the time" things that has not panned out.

It's a very good example of the problem, actually. They should be paying their young people to leave and then give/pay them back when they are able.

But this situation is historically more complex from the average American in that they were moved off other lands to designated places.

User avatar
Ego
Posts: 3806
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 12:42 am

Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by Ego » Sun Oct 30, 2016 11:03 pm

jennypenny wrote: Is the 'fix' really that almost everyone should move to urban areas? Is that really best?
When I say move, what I mean by that is that if there is no way to make money in the place where they are, they need to move to a place where they can make money. They may not need to physically move at all. In fact, I imagine if someone was as skilled at editing as you are, they could do it from almost anywhere. But if they don't have the skills or connections then they have to go out and find them.

I think part of the problem is that many who are suffering are in multi-generational trades (mining, factory work, agriculture, military) where their parents and grandparents worked the job before them. In short, the job came to them. They were born into it. It is more than a job. It is a way of life. When those opportunities dry up, it is more than a job loss. It is like a death.

The bigger problem (I believe) is the inherent cognitive dissonance that causes the rage we see. Trump supporters are the kind of people who believe quite strongly in the up-by-your-bootstraps ethic. They talked the talk for generations, all the while being ensconced in the protective cocoons of their trades. The cocoons have been shed. Here is their opportunity to walk the talk.

This is precisely the reason we induce major change in our lives every few years.

User avatar
Chad
Posts: 3697
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 3:10 pm

Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by Chad » Sat Nov 05, 2016 1:17 pm


User avatar
vezkor
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 9:51 am

Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by vezkor » Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:18 am

It's from a site that is typically a comedy site, but I thought this was particularly well written and relevant to this thread:

http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reasons-t ... -about_p2/

User avatar
bryan
Posts: 509
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:01 am
Location: mostly Bay Area

Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by bryan » Sat Nov 12, 2016 4:36 pm

Maybe another real problem is the shift of the 3 branches of government towards the red side of the aisle. This could be a serious issue, granted I don't think it is quite there yet and I'm sure in 2018, 2020 things will shift hard back to the blue side.

Yoinking from another thread:
OTCW wrote:I can't help but think of the parallel of folks buying guns when Obama was elected because they were convinced he was going to outlaw them. We have a balance of power system with three parts that has served us incredibly well. We'll be just fine this time too.
https://twitter.com/marcportermagee/sta ... 4788379648
Democrats now control only 13 state legislatures (26%). If they lose 1 more they fall below the % needed to stop constitutional amendments.
and also the fact that amendment proposals can come straight from the states (66%) and not congress.

Almost being able to amend the constitution without the typical opposition is a pretty big chink in the balance of power armor; especially considering the majority of the voting populace supported one candidate and the opposite party ended up controlling the three branches.

JamesR
Posts: 798
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:08 pm

Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by JamesR » Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:07 pm

I wanted to share this. http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16/yo ... ying-wolf/ big counterpoint to media calling trump a racist.


Feel free to lock this thread too. Politics is probably getting old hat for ERE.. back to more important things ;)

CS
Posts: 105
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:24 pm

Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by CS » Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:54 pm

This article found no correlation with economic anxiety and Trump support. It was all racial anxiety.

http://www.vox.com/world/2016/11/9/1357 ... xenophobia

America is never going to be White again (unlike those few hundred years it was stolen from the natives). I frankly love the irony that people under stress have more children: so all the hate piled onto blacks is only going to help grow their population. Go underdogs.

The front row kids thinking was interesting (as one myself, being a the proud owner of several graduate degrees). But I think is group is primed to think the root of support is economics based since that is the focus here.

Europe is rapidly changing from the influx of people, just as America is. The romantic picture of Parians (white of course) eating baguettes while walking through the charming streets during a light Christmas snow is gone. Now it is riots by minorities due to lack of jobs. (Although as recently as the late 1800s, Paris has had bloody massacres amongst it's whites so bad the river Seine ran red. But that is a whole different xenophobia. I digress).

I think there is some biological survival basis to this fear. After all, our ancestors came out of Africa, mated with, killed, and ate (yes ate) the Neanderthals until the Neanderthals were no more. But understanding this issue as such, does not make acting out on these fears more acceptable to most of society today. And realistically, I think the cat is out of the bag on this one, never go back in again. The demographics will not tip back for a whole host of reasons. (Personally, I'm betting on the Chinese being the ultimate take all winner. But we'll never know unless we invent a time machine.)

This survival base motivation has been acknowledged here and there outright: few year ago (decades ago?) Pat Roberts called on women to have more kids. It was understood he meant white Christian women. And just this year a book came out recently entitled "They can't kill us all", a black author writing about activists. He writes about the details, the but title alone shows the awareness of the overall battle being fought here - that for a some this is a zero some game; there is no plurality, only winner (survivor) and loser (extinction).
Last edited by CS on Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Dragline
Posts: 4116
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:50 am

Re: The Trump Problem (the real one)

Post by Dragline » Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:16 pm

"I understand the anger Americans feel today. In the past, our presidents have channeled that anger and forged it into resolve, into endurance and high purpose, and into the will to defeat the enemies of freedom. Our anger was transformed into energy directed for good.

Mr. Trump is directing our anger for less than noble purposes. He creates scapegoats of Muslims and Mexican immigrants. He calls for the use of torture. He calls for killing the innocent children and family members of terrorists. He cheers assaults on protesters. He applauds the prospect of twisting the Constitution to limit First Amendment freedom of the press.

This is the very brand of anger that has led other nations into the abyss."

So was Mitt Romney wrong when he said that, or just "brainwashed by the media"?

Ron Paul said something similar just last week after the election about scapegoating immigrants as an excuse for people failing to take personal responsibility. Was he "brainwashed by the media" too?

Or is the "blame the media" propaganda narrative so strong and important that the truth doesn't matter any more?

Welcome to the abyss. Your guides will be Steve "Goebbels" Bannon and Jeff "hey, boy" Sessions. The enemies list will be long but you'll get a free pass so long as you are willing to look the other way when the torture, killings, assaults on protesters and limitations on the First Amendment begin. Just like Mitt Romney predicted.

But its ok. You can just blame the media and pretend nothing is happening. Der Gropenfuhrer gives you permission.

Post Reply