On Education

Intended for constructive conversations. Exhibits of polarizing tribalism will be deleted.
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gibberade
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Post by gibberade »

Just a short clip by Seth Godin that relates well to ERE:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ea5IgyVd3_U
Godin states that our education system is designed to churn out workers that can obediently take orders. Not only that, but in school students are indoctinrated a resolute belief in consumerism. Upon graduating, they are released into the workforce, ready for a life of working and spending.
Jacob and many of you have said much of the same.
Godin goes on to criticize the objectives of trade school. I think the analysis here is a little questionable, but the rest is just spot on.


Surio
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Post by Surio »

@gibberade,

Good one. Indeed, there's a trickle of this type of info leaking into the wider world ('Seth Godin'-aware world, that is :-/) but still not enough, because the inertia of society's direction is keeping people on the same track to "Choose Life".
If you noticed in the interview, it was the interviewer that called trade schools to question, thereby totally undermining all credibility of his original thinking by failing to view the full picture. I don't know, but perhaps the interviewer is interested in creation of "super-colleges" for his children? Of course Seth also played into his hand by striking off trade schools in a half-hearted way... "At least they are honest, and tell you the truth"(*), that "you will be an auto mechanic all your life"(**).
(*) Well, I don't agree with your views on trade schools, interviewer.
(**) But I will not make you unhappy either (as you are interviewing me and doing me a small favour), so I will diss the trade schools along the established social strata lines, thereby feeding your insecurity and disdain for "blue-collar work"! Win-Win (FTW!)
I had posted another video of RSAnimate, of Sir Ken Robinson who talks along those lines. Sir Ken is openly sympathetic to the other trades and vocation (not the animator, the animator draws from sir Ken's original talk's message).
My gripe is that neither talk offers any concrete suggestions or some germs of an idea for others to latch on to and expand. So, we are still doomed to "pretend to play along", semi string-up our children and spend every evening reverse-brainwashing the child out of school (thereby scarring it or confusing it, whatever!)... Tears! :'(!
Sigh!


gibberade
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Post by gibberade »

You're points are valid. I think just because time restraints Seth doesn't expound any alternatives. I'm sure if one digs a little deeper on his website you can such material.
The same is true for Robinson. I have his book (The Spark, I think it's called) and he does delve into how to fix schools.
Hopefully in the future this trickle of irritation with the school system will grow into a larger movement. You're sure right about the problem of inertia. It's hard to fix established institutions and customs.


Chad
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Post by Chad »

"Of course Seth also played into his hand by striking off trade schools in a half-hearted way... "At least they are honest, and tell you the truth"(*), that "you will be an auto mechanic all your life"(**).
....thereby feeding your insecurity and disdain for "blue-collar work"!"
I must say that I don't agree that blue collar work is the pancea it gets made out to be on here. Most of it is no less mind numbing than office cubicle work. Is it a better financial alternative? In many cases, yes. However, it isn't necessarily any more rewarding than pushing papers around.


Surio
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Post by Surio »

Chad,

I am very sorry, but I couldn't follow the gist of your argument here.
I also agree that blue collar might be rewarding, but can also get mind-numbing, if you are talking assembly lines in Toyota, GM, Ford and Honda (or Harley or Kraft or meat packaging....you get the idea). I wasn't arguing if it is a panacea or if it is not. I am just responding to gibberade with my own viewpoint after listening to the interview. Or, to be precise, my analysis of Seth's remarks to the interviewer and the context in which they were made.
P.S: In defense of blue-collar work (or more specifically, the trades), please read this essay by Matthew Crawford, which was later made into a full book. The author (who holds a PhD) argues from his own experience that he derived more satisfaction by becoming a "free agent" in the motorcycle repair business rather than work with high end technical publishing.


ShaneEde
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Post by ShaneEde »

I think the confusion is in lumping blue collar and trade together. To me, a trade profession is one where you actually perform the trade. Good examples of this would be a plumber, mechanic, electrician, welder, etc. Yes, those are professions that are generally thought of as blue collar, but are done a serious injustice when you lump them together with factory assembly line workers.


Surio
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Post by Surio »


Yet the trades and manufacturing are lumped together in the mind of the pundit class as "blue collar," and their requiem is intoned.

Quote from the essay by Matthew Crawford (link above). So, I am quite aware of the distinction, as well as the prevailing confusion in linking them together, my brethren. :-)
But, I like to clarify, I have not lumped anything together. I think my original remark was misunderstood: "I must say that I don't agree that blue collar work is the pancea it gets made out to be on here". Which I wasn't.
Note, I hope my remarks concerning the interview is clear?

Seth is "speaking those lines"(*) :-/

(*)but thinking this line ;-)
So, from above, in that sentence, "thereby feeding your(*) insecurity and disdain for "blue-collar work"!"
your => Seth is referring to the interviewer, who came across as someone who does indeed lump the two together!
If you refer to this line as my lumping of the two, "In defense of blue-collar work (or more specifically, the trades)", then, I was just trying to echo that author's anguish which he voices in the essay by writing in that manner.
Yes there is scope for misunderstanding, but it was merely to point out the blurring that is occurring in mainstream media today.
Hope I clarified.


Chad
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Post by Chad »

The gist was really from multiple subjects in this forum suggesting trade/blue collar work is the answer and all will be solved if we were all trade/blue collar workers. This is essentially what some are saying here by suggesting the trade schools don't deserve criticism.
I think the criticism of trade schools is valid. Why do we even need them? Let people apprentice. I think the apprentice model works for most professions from plumber to accountant. The apprentice gets paid to learn and the person sponsoring (probably not the right word) gets cheap labor.
I would also note, I know some of the sales people for those trade schools and they don't care if there are jobs for those trades or not. They just want the cash. Those schools are just as much businesses, as any traditional college. Just because the students go to school for a shorter time frame and a different type of profession does not make the trade schools a better deal than traditional college.
Concerning suggested readings on trades; I don't need to read anything on trade professions, as I briefly worked as a carpenter and mason (obviously, I was more apprentice than master), and am related to plumbers and electricians. Those professions can be just as boring as any desk job. Though, they can be financially better over the long run for extreme early retirement.


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