How bad is religion !

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7Wannabe5
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Re: How bad is religion !

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Dragline: Damn you for making me download another book. So, hierarchies are "surprisingly resilient" for a "rigid structure?" Does that make them robust?

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GandK
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Re: How bad is religion !

Post by GandK »

Ego wrote:Is it wise to perfect the ability to believe things that are unsupported by evidence?
I would argue that it is more likely to lead to happiness than the absence of the ability to believe without evidence. And, that being the case, the wisdom of it can be debated even by the rational. The ability to craft your own reality, to step into it, and to live your life within boundaries you chose for yourself makes a whole host of other issues - the ones introduced by other people, generally - completely moot.

Also... facts, and the acceptance of facts, while necessary for education, are utterly unnecessary for happiness. It has been argued (convincingly, for me) that education and high levels of intelligence can lead to unhappiness. I'm not suggesting that we should not educate ourselves (heaven forbid), but I am suggesting that to the extent that one wishes to be happy, one cannot educate or reason oneself into that state. It lies on another continuum entirely, and you'd need another path to achieve it. Likely one with irrational markers such as love, respect... and, for many, religion.

IlliniDave
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Re: How bad is religion !

Post by IlliniDave »

Chad wrote:
@IlliniDave
Or, religion using the state as a tool to rule. Both scenarios create huge negatives as it allows a team to take what they want from another team based on nothing but the definition of belief above.
Agree, sometimes the lines get blurred, but I believe the majority tendency in the last couple centuries where things have gone most awry have been cases where the government/political/military power has been the co opter of the ideology.

7Wannabe5
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Re: How bad is religion !

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I am suggesting that to the extent that one wishes to be happy, one cannot educate or reason oneself into that state. It lies on another continuum entirely, and you'd need another path to achieve it. Likely one with irrational markers such as love, respect... and, for many, religion.
I'm not sure that I agree. There are behaviors correlated with happiness, and although it is true that just educating yourself about the correlation will not make you happier, choosing to engage in the behaviors generally will. Also, I believe that love and respect and worship are behaviors. I don't rationally believe in Santa Claus, but I choose to behave as if I do and that behavior generally tends towards making me feel rather jolly, but the jolly feeling doesn't require evidence of miracle, just choice to value practice of child-like make-believe towards awe and wonder. IOW, I think there are people who practice religion as rational adults, and others who don't. I mean people do really feel frightened when they watch a horror movie, but that doesn't mean or require that they literally believe in goblins, just an ability to temporarily suspend disbelief and inhabit the story or myth. The inability to do that would, I suppose, be more indicative of some form of autism than rationality, but the opposite tendency would also be troubling, whatever the emotional benefit might be.

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Ego
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Re: How bad is religion !

Post by Ego »

GandK wrote:
Ego wrote:Is it wise to perfect the ability to believe things that are unsupported by evidence?
I would argue that it is more likely to lead to happiness than the absence of the ability to believe without evidence.
I cannot wake up tomorrow and decide to believe something no more than I can wake up tomorrow and decide to begin, without practice, speaking Swahili. Belief requires evidence, indoctrination... (previous experiences), in the same way that Swahili requires verbs, nouns... (previous experiences).

On the other hand, I can decide that I want to believe something that I don't actually believe. This disconnect, what I truly believe vs. what I want to believe, is a monkeywrench than causes a lot of really big problems.

Self-delusion like the type you described is not the exclusive route to happiness. In fact, I'd argue that it is an inauthentic route that leads to something different from the goal.
GandK wrote: Also... facts, and the acceptance of facts, while necessary for education, are utterly unnecessary for happiness. It has been argued (convincingly, for me) that education and high levels of intelligence can lead to unhappiness. I'm not suggesting that we should not educate ourselves (heaven forbid), but I am suggesting that to the extent that one wishes to be happy, one cannot educate or reason oneself into that state. It lies on another continuum entirely, and you'd need another path to achieve it. Likely one with irrational markers such as love, respect... and, for many, religion.
You may be conflating education, intelligence and rationality. A person can be happy and rational. Irrationality is not a prerequisite for happiness. Education on the other hand may be correlated with unhappiness.

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jennypenny
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Re: How bad is religion !

Post by jennypenny »

I don't think a person's stance on the existence of God is, or should be, a litmus test for whether a person is rational or not. A person's disbelief in God doesn't automatically make them immune to other irrational beliefs (as you've defined it).

Look at how many atheists believe in Keynesian economics. ;)

SimpleLife
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Re: How bad is religion !

Post by SimpleLife »

What, .0000000000000000000000000000000000001 percent of religious people on the planet are bad. That means we should do away with religion, which improves communities and families? I don't mind religious people in general, because they are usually better than the rest of society, regardless of whether their beliefs are accurate or not.

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Re: How bad is religion !

Post by SimpleLife »

Since the beginning of time, man has tried to rule over other men. This is really no different.

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GandK
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Re: How bad is religion !

Post by GandK »

Ego wrote:
GandK wrote:
Ego wrote:Is it wise to perfect the ability to believe things that are unsupported by evidence?
I would argue that it is more likely to lead to happiness than the absence of the ability to believe without evidence.
Self-delusion like the type you described is not the exclusive route to happiness. In fact, I'd argue that it is an inauthentic route that leads to something different from the goal.
? I said "more," not "exclusively." And if one's goal is happiness, and one achieves it, then it would only matter how authentic one's route was if authenticity was a prerequisite for that happiness. Wouldn't it? Apologies to all... we're pretty far afield here.
Ego wrote:Irrationality is not a prerequisite for happiness.
I don't believe this at all, and I hope I didn't imply it. But I do believe there's a certain worship of rationality that frequently occurs among people who like to demonize other forms of worship. And I find this extremely ironic. Logic is a Te framework just like religion is an Fe framework. They serve the same underlying purpose: to provide guidance to both judgment and action. But, as with politics, there are wingnuts on both sides who insist that theirs is the only true framework!!!1! and the other framework is invalid. But good and bad is accomplished with either. People thrive and wither with either. Civilizations are built and they crumble with either.

A vine never cares which lattice it climbs.

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Ego
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Re: How bad is religion !

Post by Ego »

When I first read your post I through I must have read it wrong. But then I read it a few more times and kept seeing the same thing. Turns out I DID read it wrong. Funny how my eyes skipped over the words 'more likely' each time. Sheesh. I gotta keep my confirmation bias in check.

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GandK
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Re: How bad is religion !

Post by GandK »

No worries. I admire your self-checking questions. <3 You've made me reconsider many things. Keep it up.

Chad
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Re: How bad is religion !

Post by Chad »

SimpleLife wrote:I don't mind religious people in general, because they are usually better than the rest of society, regardless of whether their beliefs are accurate or not.
Oh, please. In my personal experience it's the exact opposite. The ones I know were the most eager to condone torture and the bombing of non-combatants to get combatants. I actually had a long discussion with a friend's father who was more concerned with punishing those responsible for 9/11 than preventing the next one.

They were also racist and refused to believe any science that went against their beliefs. Yes, they are more supportive of the nuclear family model, but it by no means makes them better. (There are serious questions about the nuclear family model.)

I'm not suggesting non-believers are any better based on my personal experience, as this is just one small piece of data. I'm only pointing out that belief is a bad way to predict if someone is a good person or not.

http://www.livescience.com/47799-morali ... liefs.html

@jenny
True, belief or non-belief does not preclude someone from being rational, but belief does make me question their rationality much more. They have a bigger barrier now in proving they are rational about other subjects. Including economics!

@Ego
Self-delusion like the type you described is not the exclusive route to happiness. In fact, I'd argue that it is an inauthentic route that leads to something different from the goal.
I would agree with this.

SimpleLife
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Re: How bad is religion !

Post by SimpleLife »

Chad wrote:
SimpleLife wrote:I don't mind religious people in general, because they are usually better than the rest of society, regardless of whether their beliefs are accurate or not.
Oh, please. In my personal experience it's the exact opposite. The ones I know were the most eager to condone torture and the bombing of non-combatants to get combatants. I actually had a long discussion with a friend's father who was more concerned with punishing those responsible for 9/11 than preventing the next one.

They were also racist and refused to believe any science that went against their beliefs. Yes, they are more supportive of the nuclear family model, but it by no means makes them better. (There are serious questions about the nuclear family model.)

I'm not suggesting non-believers are any better based on my personal experience, as this is just one small piece of data. I'm only pointing out that belief is a bad way to predict if someone is a good person or not.

http://www.livescience.com/47799-morali ... liefs.html

@jenny
True, belief or non-belief does not preclude someone from being rational, but belief does make me question their rationality much more. They have a bigger barrier now in proving they are rational about other subjects. Including economics!

@Ego
Self-delusion like the type you described is not the exclusive route to happiness. In fact, I'd argue that it is an inauthentic route that leads to something different from the goal.
I would agree with this.

Isn't vengeance frowned upon in religion? I find it odd that these religious people you speak of are more like mobsters than religious folks. I don't think I was as clear as I could have been. I don't mean religious people are better, just that they are less likely to be out robbing the 7-11 or selling crack on the corner. But I do agree with you that many think that somehow their religion is better than another. More wars have been waged and more people killed in the name of Christianity than any other religion to date. Lot's of high and mighty Christians. Personally, I am NOT religious. I never have been. I went to a Christian church briefly as a kid, but I challenged them. I did not believe in the hypocrisy. They couldn't explain or justify, so I just chalked it up as another means of controlling people. The fact that all these religions in the world think theirs is the one and only true one is astonishing. People are generally very ignorant, and WANT to believe something, and cling to it bitterly no matter what logic and science prove to them otherwise. Again, I believe in God, but not man made religion. I just meant that most religious people are living lives under the radar, not bothering anybody.

Chad
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Re: How bad is religion !

Post by Chad »

It appears I misunderstood your initial statement concerning the "better" comment. Sorry about that.

Vengeance is frowned upon, but so are a lot of things the religious support. They can be hypocrites like anyone, as you already noted.
I just meant that most religious people are living lives under the radar, not bothering anybody.
This seems like a reasonable assumption, but it's probably not what actually happens. People are people and their team can only influence them so much.

Here is an interesting post about the belief make up of the prison population:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyat ... -imagined/

Keep in mind this is an atheist website, so I'm sure bias can exist in the post. He does point out the numbers are rather shaky due to various reasons. I don't think this confirms anything other than it's not reasonable to assume religious people are bothering people any less.

The atheist prisoner number is probably low because it's rather self-selecting a certain type of person within the current small portion of the overall population...like the ERE website. That self-selection would disappear if non-believers became the vast majority of the overall population.

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jennypenny
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Re: How bad is religion !

Post by jennypenny »

Chad wrote:Here is an interesting post about the belief make up of the prison population:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyat ... -imagined/

Keep in mind this is an atheist website, so I'm sure bias can exist in the post. He does point out the numbers are rather shaky due to various reasons. I don't think this confirms anything other than it's not reasonable to assume religious people are bothering people any less.
There are more problems than the reasons he mentions. I'm not trying to stir the pot, but I think that number that gets tossed around is misleading...


>>"Finally, it’s also important to note that 17% of prisoners reported no religious preference. They’re not necessarily atheists and may even believe in a higher power. We really don’t know. 3% were “Other” and 3.44% were “Unknown.” We can’t assume these people are atheists or Christian or anything else. However, if you combined the Atheist/No Religious Preference groups and lumped them together as “Nones,” as some sociologists do, you’d get 17% of the prison population… I’m not sure that tells you anything useful, though, because of the murkiness of the labels."

It's not just the murkiness of the labels, as he puts it. Think about the average education level of the prison population. How many don't say yes to "atheist" because they don't know what an atheist is? I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but I wonder if the questions are worded at the appropriate reading level. I thought I read that almost 20% of the US prison population is illiterate.


>>"Here’s another question worth asking: How does the prisoner data compare to the religious makeup of the general population? In other words, are atheists over-presented or under-represented in prison?"

What he doesn't ask is--How does the prisoner data compare to the ethnic and racial makeup of the general population? According to the NYT, "Given the cultural pull toward religion, less than one-half of a percent of African-Americans identify themselves as atheists, compared with 1.6 percent of the total population..." We all know how over-represented blacks are in the prison population (40%), so to figure out what the comparable percentage of atheists should be, race needs to be factored in. Hispanics make up another 20% of the prison population and are also much less likely to be irreligious or atheistic. In the US, non-hispanic whites and asians make up the majority of the irreligious, and are also extremely underrepresented in the prison population. Given that data, one would expect the number of atheists in prison to be much lower than in the general population.


>>"Prisoners can change religious affiliations, too. We don’t know if these numbers represent what they believed when they committed their crime(s) or what they believed after they went through some personal transformation."

This is another manifestation of "there are no atheists in foxholes." The racial and ethnic makeup of the prison population probably contributes to a higher conversion rate as well.

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GandK
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Re: How bad is religion !

Post by GandK »

Chad wrote:Here is an interesting post about the belief make up of the prison population:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyat ... -imagined/
I'm not sure how much you can read into this either, Chad. I've probably attended 15 different churches in my lifetime and I've never attended one that didn't have a robust prison outreach program. Most Christians see the prison population as a fertile mission field, and I personally know multiple people who "found God" while they were behind bars. They were at a low point in their life, may have been praying for the first time anyway, maybe to no one in particular. "Help, please let me get through this," etc. And then someone shows up and says "Here's a map for how you can turn your life around and start over... here's redemption." What convicted man wouldn't want to hear that? So, enter the Christian. It happens all the time.

This would be far more pertinent/interesting to me if we could see faith numbers before and after incarceration, and compare the two.

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Re: How bad is religion !

Post by jacob »

For this kind of statistical conclusions, it might be more useful to look at it country-by-country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importanc ... by_country

The state-by-state numbers for the US might also prove enlightening. Then compare which states and countries have the most hawks with religious importance. A correlation should be observed. Of course religion might simply be a confounding variable for something else in this case.

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jennypenny
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Re: How bad is religion !

Post by jennypenny »

jacob wrote: For this kind of statistical conclusions, it might be more useful to look at it country-by-country. ...

Of course religion might simply be a confounding variable for something else in this case.
level of affluence ... http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2010/09/re ... h-poverty/

In this case, the US is the exception to the rule.

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Re: How bad is religion !

Post by jacob »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... e_equality

(Ritzholtz graph is misleading because he's weighing affluence by dollars but religion by headcount which only works if income is uniformly distributed. A plot using median GDP instead of average GDP would make more sense.)

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Re: How bad is religion !

Post by Tyler9000 »

I generally find that topics like this tend to pop up right after a terrorist attack for one of two reasons:

1) A strained politically correct attempt not to name the very specific party who carried out the attack.
2) A strained attempt to attack all religion by claiming broad moral equivalence between those whose belief in God breeds compassion and those who wish to murder those who don't believe in the same things they do. If you really can't tell the difference, you have an extremely shallow understanding of religion.

There are good religions and bad religions. Just like there are good atheists and bad atheists. Good humans and bad humans. Blindness to the difference only enables the bad ones.

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