What would you change about Capitalism?

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Slevin
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What would you change about Capitalism?

Post by Slevin »

The past few days I have been listening to a lot of Richard Wolff talk about what he thinks is wrong with capitalism and how it has incredible systemic problems. He cites many of them, a few are: constant exponential growth, a growing wealth inequality, economic instability, and lack of worker incentive.

Wolff's solution is a new breed of socialism, one where the companies are run by co-ops and things/wealth are distributed in a democratic fashion by the co-ops. This system seems like an improvement on the ones we have now. For one, having a direct connection with the products being created by companies allows for the individual to be far more involved and happy with their work (as they are creators and owners of what they make). Another good thing is that flatter social hierarchies at work have proven to produce more innovative and happy people who work. Obviously, this may not apply to those of us who dislike working at all :lol: .

However I think this may have some systematic problems of its own, especially when it comes to everyone having a job with every company concerned only with keeping jobs. It may create subpar products being created by companies only trying to stay afloat so that everyone keeps their jobs. It is only concerned with creating a better economy for those who want to constantly work. Wage sizes may not allow for things that I would personally want to do (like ERE). Socialism has had a myriad of other problems before. Who is in charge of government? How do they get elected?

On another note, Robert Heinlein argues the exact opposite. In The Moon is a Harsh Mistress Heinlein argues that capitalism is not lenient enough in its enterprising. What is truly needed is freedom and a completely free market. Demand will drive the formulation of companies, and better communities, and unwritten social laws that everyone can agree on. Society is simply a collection of individuals, and try to encapsulate them in a set of rules will only cause most of them to be unhappy.

So on the same subject as these men have argued, what are YOUR critiques of capitalism? What systemic problems do you see with the system, and how would you try to solve them?

chenda
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Re: What would you change about Capitalism?

Post by chenda »

I would say the economic system in most developed countries is better described as state-capitalist. The state plays a huge role in industrial economies (e.g military spending, energy subsidies for the hydrocarbon industry, state-back mortgages, developing the internet etc etc)
In some respects, third world countries are much closer to the anarchisty-type society that Heinlein advocates.

Negative externalities are the key problem for any economic system.

tonyedgecombe
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Re: What would you change about Capitalism?

Post by tonyedgecombe »

Slevin wrote:What is truly needed is freedom and a completely free market.
The trouble with that is organisations will ignore external costs, there is a good reason most of the western world regulates the way tobacco companies promote their products or the safety features needed in cars and so on.

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Ego
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Re: What would you change about Capitalism?

Post by Ego »

Slevin wrote:What systemic problems do you see with the system, and how would you try to solve them?
There are many systematic problems. I purposely try to refrain from playing a part in their fix. That sounds horrible. Oh well. I've come to that position slowly, over time, and I still find myself lured into theoretical arguments every so often.

The people who expend a great deal of energy trying to make large systemic changes are usually using the impossibly large problems as a way to distract themselves from making the smaller, glaringly obvious changes needed in their own lives.

I try not to do that myself. Control what I can and don't worry about the rest. Though I still need to work on it.

Also, it is useful to live, at least for a short time, in a place where the systems are in shambles. It lends perspective to how "bad" things really are.

vexed87
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Re: What would you change about Capitalism?

Post by vexed87 »

Charles Hugh Smith's 'Survival+' book is a great read and it goes into a lot of detail about crony-capitalism and why Capitalism as we know it is failing us.

Here's the free abridge version, but I recommend the full book:
http://www.oftwominds.com/Survival/SP-free.pdf

Chad
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Re: What would you change about Capitalism?

Post by Chad »

I would change three main things.

One would be to add new goals/requirements to the corporations ultimate goal. Currently, this is only shareholder value/profitability. We need to add other requirements to this top tier, such as environmental, human decency, etc. These are all really squishy and much harder to measure, so the process would be difficult.

Ideally, we would want to do the above without significant legislation. The only caveat would be if the measuring devices were new financial instruments, such as carbon offsets, etc.

The second major change, which really ties to some of the first, is to change how boards are elected and how they impact the company. These people are really just a good ole' boys club in the current environment. They need to be more divorced from the CEO.

This one would obviously require set rules.

The third would be to change the amount and how political candidates get money for their campaigns. I would actually vote for Lessig, because of his sole focus on this issue. Just wish he could get some momentum.
Also, it is useful to live, at least for a short time, in a place where the systems are in shambles. It lends perspective to how "bad" things really are.
This is a good point. I have never done this, but it really surprises me how bad places can be...and that is just from reading about them.
What is truly needed is freedom and a completely free market. Demand will drive the formulation of companies, and better communities, and unwritten social laws that everyone can agree on.
The problem with this is there is never a truly free market. It's just an academic theory that has never happened and never will, because humans are human.

vexed87
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Re: What would you change about Capitalism?

Post by vexed87 »

Libertarianism seems to me to have a lot of the answers.

Significantly reducing the state and subsequently legislation could help bring us closer to the free market principles. As Chad mentions, its technically impossible, and I suspect morally wrong to have truly free markets or to put it another way, zero regulation of industry because human's are weak and are prone to make decisions based on their own self-interests which ultimately do wrong to others.

States should focus on protecting individuals rights from abuse by others and not much else. The regulation that they do impose should include considerations for environmental protection, fostering opportunity and social mobility and the health and safety of its citizenry.

Lobbying by individuals or corporations for subsidises and changes to regulations should be banned, it's a state endorsed corruption and is likely the root of all evil as far as capitalism is concerned.
Last edited by vexed87 on Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

Dragline
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Re: What would you change about Capitalism?

Post by Dragline »

To paraphrase Winston Churchill, its the worst economic system ever invented -- except for all the other ones.

If you look at the system as a game, in its academic form, its assumed to be a fair game where all participants have equal access to information, ability to use it and a complete knowledge of all future preferences they may ever have in life so that they can plan for them.

Since we know this is not true and that there is a subset of humans that lie, cheat and steal for their own benefits and jollies (sociopaths -- e.g., Wolf or Wallstreet or Madoff), what we need are rules to prevent cheating. Most of the arguments about regulation come down to this -- how much do we need to prevent cheating? And how do we define cheating in a particular circumstance?

[Note: The main disadvantage of most other economic systems is that they allow for even more cheating than free market systems -- usually by those possessing political power. This is one of the reasons free-market systems are preferable to top-down systems unless you have an "enlightened autocrat", which tend to be few and far between. N.B.: Contrary to the religious fervor of those who proclaim their undying beliefs in free markets and shibboleths about self-regulating mechanisms, such things can only be true in the frictionless, Euclidean universe of academia where all externalities are assumed away.]

The other fundamental question is the question of inequalities of outcomes. A capitalist system invariably results in inequality, due largely to differentiation in access to information and the ability to use it, and not get distracted by shiny objects and addictive behaviors. Unfettered, it results in child labor and other forms of near-slavery that most societies deem undesieable. So this question then is how much do we care about inequalities and how much regulation and/or redistribution do we want to have?

There are no right answers to either the cheating question or inequality question, and in a dynamic world, those answers should change over time and circumstance.

So I also think that searches for perfect economic systems are a waste of time at best, and a utopian nightmare at worst.

IlliniDave
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Re: What would you change about Capitalism?

Post by IlliniDave »

The hard part about capitalism is that, like every endeavor, some people are better at it than others. That's a difficult pill to swallow, as evidenced by the enduring popularity of ideas and movements to make everyone the same.

Looking at the present situation in the US I think there are a few ways in which the economic environment could be improved. Some reformation in the area of corporate boards of directors is in order--the position should carry responsibilities that if not met result in consequences with real teeth. In the financial services industry meaningful fiduciary standards should be put in place, again with teeth. Plundering people's savings under the guise of being a money manager is one of the more abhorrent things we allow. I also don't see the point of high corporate and business taxes, it just discourages anyone with options from creating wealth domestically.

And I think we need take a hard look at campaign reform and PACs. It's essentially a system of legalized bribery masquerading as free speech. Of course, when the primary gist of every election now boils down in good measure to one party promising to the "poor" guys, "I'll take money from the other guy and put it in your pocket" versus the other side promising the "rich" guys, "I'll let you keep more of what you go out and earn"; while both sides keep their pockets wide open to be shamelessly stuffed by the highest bidder, it's hard to see any meaningful changes in the future. Maybe we need a tax levied on political/campaign/PAC contributions that is much higher than the highest rate paid by any individual or business.

Unfortunately human nature is such that some of us pursue money simply for the sake of money. The "how" is simply whatever is most expedient. It would be better if everyone had a vocation to improve society and the world and were compensated in proportion to how much they contribute, but it just doesn't work that way. No matter what we do we err somewhat, and it's probably best to err on the side of individual freedom and autonomy. My $0.02. If the gov't were to encourage/incentivize any behavior through it's system of taxation, my vote would be to encourage reduced consumption (i.e., reward saving, reuse, recycling, etc.). That's why I am not against abolishing income tax and going with a sales tax.

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GandK
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Re: What would you change about Capitalism?

Post by GandK »

I know I've said this to a couple of people here, but you should really read What Money Can't Buy: The Moral Limits of Markets by Michael Sandel. Here's a TED video where he talks about the main thrust of the book... that we've gone from using capitalism as a tool, to becoming part of the tool... to becoming cogs in a capitalist machine. And I'd personally argue that's fine if we're all doing it mindfully, but we're not. We're just sort of drifting in that direction, into a place where everything is for sale, even people. And interjecting about it to say "that's morally not okay; there's something objectifying about this" when person A wants to buy something - whether that's time, or sex, or a liver - from person B... that is what has become not okay. It makes you either a religious nut trying to impose your faith on the unwilling, or it makes you un-American. Or both. Capitalism has become so absolute that no one is permitted to question the sale of anything. And because (for good or ill) there is no longer a common definition of right and wrong in our society, we seem to have simultaneously drifted into a moral abyss where nothing that anyone does is anyone else's business anymore. Which only feeds the beast, because ignorance of the true state of our fellow human beings is how we end up with abuse, and exploitation, and inequality, and everything that capitalism was initially touted as a cure for.

What would I change about capitalism? We should be controlling it, and its actions. It should not be controlling ours.

akratic
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Re: What would you change about Capitalism?

Post by akratic »

Capitalism 3.0 is a good read on this topic. The author released a free PDF, and I couldn't find his original domain, but you can access a copy here.

The book is divided into two parts: 1) critiques of our current system and 2) a potentially better one. I enjoyed the critique more.

Noided

Re: What would you change about Capitalism?

Post by Noided »

Although I want freedom for myself, I don't believe the world would work with a libertarian approach + same people we have today.

The only way I see for society to keep improving overall utility and solving our current and future problems is with an inteligent/systematic thinking dictator.

So yeah, I think we are screwed.

Chad
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Re: What would you change about Capitalism?

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luxagraf
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Re: What would you change about Capitalism?

Post by luxagraf »

Since everything postulated about post-capitalist anything is speculative fiction, I find that the best ideas tend to come from, well, writers of speculative fiction. Lately I've enjoyed the fictional near-future series on http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/ .

7Wannabe5
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Re: What would you change about Capitalism?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I kind of believe that you only really possess property that you actually use to the extent that you use it, so I think there is a lack of core reality to the notion of Capitalism that may be sorely tried one of these days. So, I guess what I would change is other people's lack of sharing my perception which is that there must be an inherent waste of energy involved in defending one's right to property for which you literally have no use.

chenda
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Re: What would you change about Capitalism?

Post by chenda »

@7wannabe5 see
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutuali ... ic_theory)

'Proudhon argued that property in the product of labor is essential to liberty, while property that strayed from "possession" ("occupancy and use") was the basis for tyranny and would lead a society to destroy itself.'

And https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Tucker

'Tucker opposed granting title to land that was not in use; he argued that an individual should use land continually, in order to retain exclusive right to it. He believed that if this practice were not followed, there was a 'land monopoly''

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Re: What would you change about Capitalism?

Post by jacob »

Slevin wrote:The past few days I have been listening to a lot of Richard Wolff talk about what he thinks is wrong with capitalism and how it has incredible systemic problems. He cites many of them, a few are: constant exponential growth, a growing wealth inequality, economic instability, and lack of worker incentive.
Constant exponential growth is a bug of the reserve banking system.
The growing wealth inequality has a lot to do with technological and financial leverage.
Economic instability comes from the continued expansion of a credit based system.

None of these need be part of a capitalist system. They just happen to be tagged onto it.

Lack of worker incentive? Huh?! Where did that come from? If you want to see lack of worker incentives, try any other system.

Some previous posts:
http://earlyretirementextreme.com/ecolo ... alism.html
which all sounds good in theory, until I realized that
http://earlyretirementextreme.com/99-pe ... laves.html
and therefore this
http://earlyretirementextreme.com/borso ... atrix.html

Also, based on experience, unless you're some kind of leading politician or a pundit with tons of influence, like e.g. Thomas Krugman, a much bigger impact can be made by making personal changes and maybe convincing just one other person to do the same. Your impact can be directly measured---in capitalism---by the amount of money flows you redirect based on your actions. My experience is that discussing social systems tend to redirect very few flows because they aren't very actionable. Way too theoretical. But it could be that I've just been having the wrong discussions. Yet ... I think whenever anyone proposes Fix X to some problem, it should come with an addendum specifying how an individual can take the first step to get from here to there. Otherwise, no change will happen.

7Wannabe5
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Re: What would you change about Capitalism?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Chenda - Thanks for the links. Yup, I guess the designation libertarian socialist would fit me just about right-lol. One part J.S. Mills and one part Sesame Street. But, it really isn't about how I think things "should" be, but how I think they actually are. For instance, I don't think this rule of thumb applies just to land. I think it also applies to guitars in attics, the remaining half of a sandwich. biceps and some relationships. If you don't use it, you will lose it, or you have already lost it. Ownership has something to do with possession which has something to do with domain or dominance which has something to do with use and/or maintenance and/or defense. It has to do with why it can be a mildly aggressive act to walk over to the sink and start washing the dishes in a home that is not your own. And the "tyranny" of which Proudhon speaks is inherently destructive to the tyrant, like a cancer or a black-hole energy pit. The way to see that this is true is to endeavor to have as little property as possible and focus on your practices or your "labors." Of course, when I tried to do this I somehow ended up becoming a kept woman, so now I'm seriously hunkered down on MY, MY, MY teeny-tiny capitalist domain of 3 vacant lots and 3500 rare books, so grain-of-salt.- lol

George the original one
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Re: What would you change about Capitalism?

Post by George the original one »

My naïve answer: "I'd like to see love, kindness, & understanding become the new world currency."

Riggerjack
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Re: What would you change about Capitalism?

Post by Riggerjack »

:evil: What's wrong with capitalism? Ego, dragline and jacob have it right, above. This is an enormous waste of time and energy. However, it's one I enjoy. Optimization of a theoretical system? I'm in!

First, your example issues:

Wolff, and other light socialists, just want to impose their feelings about justice on the current system. Nothing wrong with that, but it's no way to come up with a working solution. I'd say overall the system is awesome, with a few tweaks, it could be better.
By that I mean it is comparatively awesome. Look at the standards our poor have, and that is the true measure of the system. Don't judge by the winners, judge by the losers, the disenfranchised. If you are going to be poor, here and now is the place and time. While income inequality is getting worse, I don't think it's a real problem. It's part of the politics of envy, but in absolute terms, it is the standards of living at the bottom that matter, not how high the peaks are.

Heinlein is awesome! However, he is a military academy grad, who stepped into a lucrative career as a writer. I imagine he felt held back by the lesser achievers his whole life, and that comes out in his writing. Plus, he is writing sci Fi, where all his characters are exemplary, they would succeed in any system. Read "the man too lazy to fail" for some insight into how life should be, if you're smart.

The problem with Heinlein and libertarian solutions are the general public. I get reminded about this every once in a while. I tend to be fairly isolated, with little contact with average Americans. It is shocking to spend time with the stupid, the lazy, and the broken, and see how many of them are out there!

Any improvement of capitalism has to be measured in how it improves the life of the disenfranchised.

Toward that end, I have a few tweaks I think would make things better overall.

I think the way things are is pretty good, on a historical basis. But there is a sense that cheating is going on. That the the rich don't pay enough taxes, buy politicians, cheat the markets, etc.

So, I would hold elections on April 15th, and multiply everyone's vote by their tax bill, as paid. No payment, you can vote next year, with interest and penalties! This eliminates voter fraud, as every vote is literally accounted for. It's only fair that the ones footing the bill get the Lion's share of authority to spend.

Suddenly the complaints would be that the rich pay too much tax! And we could stop talking about tax cuts for the rich, as if they pay income tax.

Buying politicians is false on the face of it. No CEO can show a Senator on the quarterly report. I'm not saying money doesn't change hands, or that it lacks influence. I'm saying that it is extortion, as in "nice business you got there, be a shame if someone regulated it..." The idea that these crooks are the good guys, tempted by evil CEOs is laughable. It comes from a world view based on watching too many soaps. In the real world, there isn't a good twin in a white suit and an evil twin with a goatee. Cut the regulation, and you cut the "incentive for bribes" or "power to extort" depending on your view. Also, why are corporations so big? Economies of scale only go so far, before the Dilbert principal kicks in, and things are less efficient. But at about the same point, efficiency in dealing with government kicks in. Remove the regulatory efficiency, and mid caps would eat large caps.

The view that the rich are cheating could be greatly diminished by a simple NYSE rule change. Right now, corporate boards and executives get their big bucks from pushing up stock prices, and selling options. This causes some decisions that are bad in the long term, for good in the next quarter. We've all seen this in our office lives. Simply require that stock options not be cashed out until 1-5 years after being vested, not more than 10% in a year, and not more than 10% while still in a position of authority. Align the interests of the officers with the long term interests of the business.

Honestly, I think public school teachers are a huge part of this problem. Not having public school teachers, but the making and retaining policies means we only have one political ideology present. I went to 20 schools from california to alaska, before I graduated early. I had one, very old conservative christian teacher, one moderate Democrat, and ALL the rest were various flavors of progressive. This means only one viewpoint when teaching and discussing any subject outside of math. I cabled a lot of schools in the 90's, and lost all the respect I had for the profession in those years. Teachers are a lot different when evaluated by independent adults as independent adults.

Teachers that knew enough of the world to go beyond the soap opera viewpoints could be useful to a class trying to figure out the world.

So there is my cocktail napkins level solutions, but really, focus on fixing my own situation is where I try to keep my focus.

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