Politics of raising the official retirement age

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GandK
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Politics of raising the official retirement age

Post by GandK »

While it won't apply directly to many people here, I found this research fascinating:

Does Age-Related Decline in Ability Correspond with Retirement Age? (from the Center for Retirement Research at Boston College)

LSS, this study asks whether many or most white-collar workers have lost so much cognitive ability by age 67 that it's foolish to assume they should, or will be able to, remain employed. The paper is a great exploration of both the physical and cognitive effects of aging generally, broken down by ability, and I encourage everyone here who's interested in the effects of aging to read it.

A snippet about cognitive decline, from the PDF:
The extent to which cognitive abilities decline with age generally depends on whether the cognitive ability in question benefits from accumulated knowledge or not. “Crystalized” cognitive ability, or knowledge (such as one’s vocabulary), tends to accumulate well into one’s sixties and even seventies. Older workers in occupations requiring extensive work-related knowledge to be productive will hold a productivity advantage over younger workers to the extent that the work-related knowledge in question is static.

On the other hand, “fluid” cognitive abilities, such as episodic memory, working memory, and reaction time – which people need to acquire new information and make decisions – steadily decline with age starting in one’s twenties or thirties. [Multiple sources cited.]

...

The [test given as part of this study] measures the importance of seven broad types of cognitive abilities – verbal ability, spatial ability, ability to generate ideas and reason, attentiveness, quantitative ability, memory, and perceptual abilities – for over 900 occupations. Within these categories, and in keeping with the discussion above, verbal and quantitative abilities (which generally reflect crystalized ability) do not decline significantly by age 60 for most individuals. On the other hand, spatial abilities, perceptual speed, and memory (which generally reflect fluid ability) tend to undergo measurable and practically significant decline by the end of most workers’ careers.
My first thought was that we may need to rethink the age of politicians. :D Googling "average age of US Congress" returns The average age of Members of the House at the beginning of the 113th Congress was 57.0 years; of Senators, 62.0 years. So they're 60, more or less. Although many of these are our best and brightest, according to this paper their ability to "acquire new information and make decisions" is already in significant decline. [Insert joke here.] And is that not the very essence of political work? Also, is this part of the reason old people are statistically more likely to be set in their ways? Have they literally lost the cognitive ability to go with any sort of flow?

I also wonder, as the authors of the paper did, whether increasing the FRA beyond 67 is wise. I'm generally in favor because we have limited resources and a huge national debt, and because a significant majority of people who get to sixty are now living past eighty. It makes sense to direct limited resources toward the most vulnerable people. I suppose I'm now wondering whether age is the best quantifier of that vulnerability, although there are multiple slippery slopes in introducing other variables. Considering state of health, for instance, would direct some portion of resources "more fairly" if one is looking at need, but IMO unfairly penalizes people who chose to live a healthy lifestyle over an unhealthy one. Considering someone's personal savings, same thing... for some of the destitute it really would be more fair; for others, who went without life's iPads to make a modest nest egg for themselves, it's hugely unfair. Each person's personal definition of "fair" is likely to be different. In our elder-care equations, whom should the "winners" and "losers" be?

The paper concludes by recommending that the fairest thing would be to consider the occupation of the worker in the retirement age analysis. I'm not sure that's "fair" either, but I admit I don't have any novel ideas myself.

George the original one
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Re: Politics of raising the official retirement age

Post by George the original one »

Official FRA is a financial decision by the country rather than a function of people's ability.

ERE crowd is so far ahead of any suggested FRA that it's pointless to discuss?

cmonkey
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Re: Politics of raising the official retirement age

Post by cmonkey »

I see it as simply putting a band-aid over a dismembered arm. It won't do anything to solve the underlying problem of exponential, debt-based money and skewed demographics except to make it worse. The higher you fly the farther you fall.

It could also push many younger folks into questioning the official definition of "retirement" and we might see an ERE surge. As the system ceases to function more and more people would just abandon it until its long forgotten.

vexed87
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Re: Politics of raising the official retirement age

Post by vexed87 »

cmonkey wrote:It could also push many younger folks into questioning the official definition of "retirement" and we might see an ERE surge. As the system ceases to function more and more people would just abandon it until its long forgotten.
Independent thought by the masses? :lol: :roll:

I know it's cynical and mean, but I think we're more likely to see taxpayers pick up the pieces before the masses start to save for their own futures. :twisted:

cmonkey
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Re: Politics of raising the official retirement age

Post by cmonkey »

vexed87 wrote:I think we're more likely to see taxpayers pick up the pieces before the masses start to save for their own futures.

In either case, as GTOO one pointed out, ERE crowd is so far ahead of this its just a sideshow to watch for us. If taxes went up to put another prop under it, it still wouldn't affect us since we pay no payroll tax on investment income (in the US anyway).

vexed87
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Re: Politics of raising the official retirement age

Post by vexed87 »

@Cmonkey, That is an optimistic view, consider the alternative... As the ratio of those in work paying for those that don't decreases, raising funds with income tax becomes a less feasible solution. In a full blown depression, it's impossible. People will be worse off in the future, no doubt about it. For the masses, that may well mean working in minimum wage jobs well into 70s as the state retirement age gets put back more and more, but those who can't work due to health issues won't have the option. I think it is more likely that we would see wholesale tax rises, particularly taxes on 'wealth' to cover the shortfall. It's worth pointing out that the plutocracy will be the last to hand over their wealth, so it will be the the middle class and savers who inevitably get thrown under the bus to prop up a failing state and maintain the status quo (and thus, the wealth, power and influence of the elites).

The danger for the ERE crowd is that our savings are wide open and ripe for the picking. The elites just need to move their assets to safety (out of the stock market, financial institutions etc) before they use their mass media and propaganda machines to implement the changes required to prop up the system. We may well start to see cultural attitudes to debt and saving change during the coming pensions crisis, but for those already retired or nearing retirement age with little savings will still need to be cared for.

Changes are already under way already, they won't happen over night, but incrementally so the masses who have no time to care about their future don't notice. Tax dividends just increased to 25% for those earning £31,786 in the UK. Those who use ISA accounts (sort of like the 401k you guys have) are still exempt on this tax on contributions made up to £15,000, but that's not to say that the state will honour these exemptions in a cash strapped future.

Yes the goal posts will likely move many times over the coming years, and the ERE folks are a resourceful bunch so I'm sure we will all find a way to make it work, though one would be wise to pay close attention to what is happening to pension schemes as they will likely effect EREers indirectly.

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Ego
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Re: Politics of raising the official retirement age

Post by Ego »

GandK wrote:
The paper concludes by recommending that the fairest thing would be to consider the occupation of the worker in the retirement age analysis. I'm not sure that's "fair" either, but I admit I don't have any novel ideas myself.
This is an interesting paper.

If a blue-collar worker suffered an off-the-clock injury, they would not be permitted to collect early retirement as a result. According to the study, fluid cognitive abilities such as episodic memory, working memory, and reaction time are susceptible to age related decline.

While a high degree of individual variation exists in the rate of decline in fluid cognitive ability, one’s initial levels of ability, education, or occupation are not correlated with the rate of decline. The only factors consistently linked to the rate of cognitive change are exercise (correlated with slower decline) and poor health (diabetes and strokes are correlated with faster decline).

Should we treat the white-collar worker's lack of exercise and self-induced chronic conditions in the same way we would treat an off-the-clock injury of a blue-collar worker? I believe so.

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jennypenny
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Re: Politics of raising the official retirement age

Post by jennypenny »

Couldn't traditional arguments against welfare be used against it ... that government-sponsored early retirement rewards "bad" behavior? (in this case, poor health choices.)

Many occupations already factor in shorter career lengths like police, military, and first responders, and people don't have a problem with it. Most civil servants only need to be on the clock for 20 years. Even my garbage guy has a 20-year pension (I know because he told me he did 20 years in the army and then 20 for WM and now can collect 2 pensions.) This sounds like changing SSI to function more like a pension.

I have no problem with it. Look at all of the people in their 50's who were let go after the '08 crash. If they'd worked their whole lives, why not just let them collect at age 55? Isn't it better to retire them and let younger people enter the workforce? Would we be better off now if that had been allowed to happen?* People who work at the same company until 55 are allowed to tap their 401Ks without penalty. Couldn't they just figure out the SSI math like they do with a 72(t)?

As far as paying for it, removing the cap on FICA would take care of most of it, or mandating that FICA be calculated on total compensation instead of salary for high-income earners. If my taxes need to go up, I'd rather see them directed toward SS payments (SSI and SSDI).


*Think about all of the twenty-somethings who, instead of entering the workforce, chose or continued higher education, in most cases by borrowing obscene amounts of money. Personally, I'd rather see earlier entry into the workforce with less student debt for younger people and direct that money towards supporting more seniors, even if it means redefining who a "senior" is. We're going to be on the hook for that money either way, whether it's through SSI payments or debt forgiveness on student loans.

almostthere
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Re: Politics of raising the official retirement age

Post by almostthere »

In regard to these ideas or crystallized and fluid knowledge, I'd like to know just how much variation there is in this decline of fluid knowledge. I'd also be willing to bet there are things besides exercise that could affect it. I spent about a year and a half taking math, statistics, and coding courses at age 43. I could not have done the same level of fluid reasoning work at age 23. As a matter of fact, I was generally the class clown in all math classes to hide just how poorly I understood basic algebra. Granted, I have exercised at least 45 minutes/day since my early twenties. I am also guessing my meditation practice changed some of the pathways in my brain to able to do these fluid skills, but it may be years science catches up to that.

Finally, I wonder how many adults consciously practice these fluid skills as they get older. I bet Charlie Munger has not seen a decline.

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Ego
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Re: Politics of raising the official retirement age

Post by Ego »

almostthere wrote:I'd also be willing to bet there are things besides exercise that could affect it.
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/arc ... nt/407485/

For men born in 1930 who lived in the bottom 20 percent of income distribution, life expectancy at age 50 was 76.6 years; for those born in 1960, it was mostly unchanged at 76.1. For men who lived in the top 20 percent of the income distribution, it was a different story: Their respective life expectancy numbers jumped from 81.7 to 88.8.

Higher income and increased lifespan are probably caused by a third factor rather than higher income causing increased lifespan. Might that third factor be higher fluid cognitive abilities? I wonder if the three factors act as a positive spiral on one another.

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jennypenny
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Re: Politics of raising the official retirement age

Post by jennypenny »

I thought of this thread when I read this NYT article about adult ADHD being mistaken for senility.

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Should we do away with the distinction between SSI and SSDI, and just let people collect as soon as they are deemed unable to work anymore? Or should we make a further distinction and lower benefits for people who suffer from 'lifestyle' diseases and only give full benefits to people who lost the genetic lottery? Should their occupation factor into the equation? Someone might be 'too old' cognitively to be a commodities trader, but they could probably still be a greeter at walmart. Should we make them switch careers?

Maybe we should just let people retire with full benefits 20 years before their life expectancy, which could be determined by a test given to everyone starting at age 50. The test could incorporate economic status like Ego mentioned, but also genetic issues, family history, health history, and current health status. Some people might see that as a reason to eat 3 meals a day at Krispie Kreme to qualify sooner, but other people with a history of aggressive cancer or a ticking genetic timebomb would get a few years to kick back before they kick the bucket.

So many questions LOL. The problem is that some people are going to fall through the cracks no matter what the age is, and some people are going to collect long before they need to. On which side should we err?

almostthere
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Re: Politics of raising the official retirement age

Post by almostthere »

@ Ego great article. On the third factor hypothesis, well said.

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