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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:54 am
by Riggerjack
I can't believe anyone is still talking about this.

Russian influence in American politics is nothing new. Look at the changes in our prints' portrayal of Hitler when Stalin and he were carving up Eastern Europe, vs the portrayal after Germany attacked Russia.

Do you think the radicals of the 60-70s were spontaneous?

Foreign intervention in our political process started before we had a political process.

The Democrats put forth a candidate who commanded too high a price, that's all. I mean, I understand being butthurt because the Russians switched parties, but this endless whining about it seems... disingenuous.

All you need is a standard presidential candidate, (one without the Clinton foundation and 24 years of power politics) and his/her prices will be reasonable.

I'm sure you are tired of hearing this, but Bernie would have been an investment worth buying. But choosing between a Clinton at record highs, and Trump, at a bargain; I can understand speculation on Trump.

Bring in a new CEO for the DNC. Refocus on reducing customer churn. Better customer service. Generating value. Regaining market share. Higher returns will attract more foreign investment.

Call your congressman. Let him know your expectations: Always Be Closing.

I have faith that if Democrats roll up their sleeves, and really focus, they can sell out America just as well as Republicans.

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:43 am
by Chad
Personally, I just keep these threads going to annoy you. :)

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:39 am
by Riggerjack
As good a reason as any...

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:26 pm
by Ego
Riggerjack wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:54 am
I can't believe anyone is still talking about this.
Funny, I look at it the other way around.

If someone, regardless of party affiliation, is NOT bothered by the fact that the Russian government likely influenced the results of the election then there is something wrong with that person. If someone is NOT bothered by the fact that the Russians continue to meddle (Calexit for instance) then I think it says a lot about them.

Don't think! Don't talk about it! You must be butthurt if you can't let it go!

Well, yeah, I'm offended by this ignorance offensive.

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:47 pm
by IlliniDave
Russia has meddled in US affairs and vice-versa at least since the end of WWII. If people want to talk about the last 6 months installment, fine by me, but unless it gets to the point where there's something actionable (and reasonable) to talk about it'll be hard for me to get too engaged. But it's good to see that nationalism is not completely dead and people at least feel the need to protect some facet of our national identity: our tradition of mostly upstanding internal elections.

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:14 pm
by Riggerjack
If someone, regardless of party affiliation, is NOT bothered by the fact that the Russian government likely influenced the results of the election then there is something wrong with that person. If someone is NOT bothered by the fact that the Russians continue to meddle (Calexit for instance) then I think it says a lot about them.
I admit it. Russian influence of elections doesn't particularly bother me. Maybe because I vote libertarian, and nobody is willing to invest in libertarian influence.

But really, I think it is more having to do with lack of any action to resolve this. The Russians hacked everything. Uh huh. And I would be more up in arms about that, if we didn't also hack.

Hell, the only reason we're talking about this is the Russians switched parties.

Oh, and also ignorance. I freely admit to ignorance. I have pretty much avoided any form of news since we elected the Douche. This is just self defense. Unlike Ego, I don't enjoy anger with no resolution.

I'm sure the Douche did something in the last 3 months I approve of, but it ain't worth sifting through all of the crap to find it. I had low expectations, and still he has failed to do even that well. I defended Perry as energy secretary because it is a job for political hacks, and Perry is a hack. Not because Perry was a good choice. The rest seem to be just as bad.

For me, this feels like the early 2000's. Avoiding listening to the President or news about him. Knowing that anything I hear will make me less happy than ignorance.

If anyone comes up with actions more effective than calling the Douche a douche, with links to other people calling him a douche, I'm interested. Other than that, I plan to spend the next 3.5 years focused on things I can fix. And occasionally trolling 76 page long threads about a guy who probably can't count to 76. :roll:

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:50 pm
by BRUTE
Ego wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:26 pm
If someone, regardless of party affiliation, is NOT bothered by the fact that the Russian government likely influenced the results of the election then there is something wrong with that person. If someone is NOT bothered by the fact that the Russians continue to meddle (Calexit for instance) then I think it says a lot about them.
what does it say? brute does not particularly care.

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:30 am
by Chad
@riggerjack
Probably the better way to go with this mess. Especially, when I find myself angrier at the people that voted for him than I am at him.
Riggerjack wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:14 pm
And occasionally trolling 76 page long threads about a guy who probably can't count to 76. :roll:
This is so true. The whole Pavarotti thing...argh. We will definitely see how strong our friendships are with the Europeans, Australians, etc. after this presidency.

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:53 am
by Spartan_Warrior
If anyone comes up with actions more effective than calling the Douche a douche, with links to other people calling him a douche, I'm interested.
The best political strategy is to create an opposition party that is actually oppositional. One that serves people rather than corporations. One that embraces the struggle of all, including poor whites, rather than engaging in divisive idpol. Some specific tactics:

https://justicedemocrats.com/

https://draftbernie.org/

https://runtulsirun.org

Also, the opposite of this:
I find myself angrier at the people that voted for him than I am at him
These are the people that need to be engaged. Why did they vote for Trump? We may disagree with their reasoning, their choice of scapegoats, their expectation that Trump will deliver... but we damn well better listen to what they were hoping to achieve with their vote if we want their vote in the future. Which we do.

(Spoiler: What they want are the same things all people want. Health, happiness, prosperity. A government that listens. Respectable work and a living wage. It's not complicated. Sanders manages to appeal to these people in the very states that lost it for Clinton. What is he doing and saying that other Democrats aren't?)

BTW, if you're not willing to engage Trump supporters politically, the only practical means left to achieve a majority is to kill them. That is, an actual revolution, or at least civil war. I think making an opposition party that includes those people is probably preferable to most unarmed liberals...

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:43 am
by Dragline
Spartan_Warrior wrote:
Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:53 am

BTW, if you're not willing to engage Trump supporters politically, the only practical means left to achieve a majority is to kill them. That is, an actual revolution, or at least civil war. I think making an opposition party that includes those people is probably preferable to most unarmed liberals...
Or just wait until they are dead, which is a viable strategy given the demographics.

But you are correct that a more palatable and actual alternative must be presented. Otherwise, you could just end up with competent venality and different scapegoating instead of incompetent venality and current scapegoating.

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:32 am
by Chad
Spartan_Warrior wrote:
Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:53 am
I find myself angrier at the people that voted for him than I am at him
These are the people that need to be engaged. Why did they vote for Trump? We may disagree with their reasoning, their choice of scapegoats, their expectation that Trump will deliver... but we damn well better listen to what they were hoping to achieve with their vote if we want their vote in the future. Which we do.

(Spoiler: What they want are the same things all people want. Health, happiness, prosperity. A government that listens. Respectable work and a living wage. It's not complicated. Sanders manages to appeal to these people in the very states that lost it for Clinton. What is he doing and saying that other Democrats aren't?)

BTW, if you're not willing to engage Trump supporters politically, the only practical means left to achieve a majority is to kill them. That is, an actual revolution, or at least civil war. I think making an opposition party that includes those people is probably preferable to most unarmed liberals...
Oh, I couldn't agree more. However, this requires me to be the bigger person and ignore their temper tantrum that selected someone who obviously would not help them, but would at least hurt everyone else. They say they want to be respected, and everyone else, including many on here, say that as well. They then go out and do something that encourages the exact opposite. (Obviously, emotion is still a big part of reaction to this event.)

Not to mention that I do not believe the majority of these people have any idea what they actually want or what policies would actually get them these ephemeral desires.

For instance, one of my best friend's parents both voted for Trump. His mother was then incredulous when Trump issued the executive order defunding Planned Parenthood. How could she not know? This was not a secret during his campaign.

Then during a discussion with a cousin who still lives in my hometown, it was suggested people like him, hard manual laborers, need Social Security in it's current form, while in the same breath saying he wants taxes cut. I don't entirely disagree on the Social Security argument, but the incongruous addition of lowering taxes is a hard hurdle to overcome. They, of course, entirely ignored me when I raised that point and didn't even respond to it.

These same people also vote to defang every union and then complain about low wages.

Now, by no means do I think their problems are all their own doing, just more than they would ever admit.

The changing economic environment has definitely left them behind and a significant new course of action is necessary:

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles ... M1MDU4NAS2

So, as I said, I agree completely, but it will not be easy for me. Not that it has to be. It would just be nice to not have to convince all of them that the moon landings actually happened and the Earth isn't flat before we get into the actual complicated details of real policies.

Or, I could just wait until they are dead, as Dragline suggested. Not the ideal strategy (nor do I think it's Dragline's).

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:40 am
by jacob
@SW - My sportsball model of voters is much more simple. What do people want? Fundamentally they want to cheer for their team first and foremost... maintaining "being a Cubs fan" as part of their self-identity. Many dedicated fans will also have a dedicated feud team so it's also important to be against the other team. The next priority is feeling like your team is winning or at least putting up a good fight. Following the game rules or making brilliant plays is the analogy to political points ... and those goals are tertiary.

Post-election analysis bears this out. Trump is quite popular not just his base but also amongst the next layer of the onion so to speak. This is despite not having gotten much of any politics done and flipping on a large number of political issues. What matters is that their team won and subsequently that their team has put up a good fight. This leads me to my conclusion ...
  • Supporting my team to maintain my self-identity as a life-long fan.
  • Being against the other team. (E.g. if you're a Notre Dame fan, you're obligated to be against MSU .. and so if any other team is playing MSU, you're also obligated to cheer for that other team.)
  • Achieving a good game with brilliant plays and good refereeing.
When going to a game, winning friends and influencing people is not best achieved by arguing fouls or MVPs with the fans from the opposing team in general or fleshing out which team is objectively speaking the better one; because for most people, that's not the #1 or #2 reason why they're into watching sports.

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:47 am
by IlliniDave
@jacob, you are starting to get it! :)

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Posted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:51 pm
by BRUTE
i.e. a two-party democracy is the perfect political system; not because it's good for the populace, but because it leads to optimally polarized team fighting. turns out evolution only cares for itself.

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:06 am
by Jake9870
This is where I'd like to see our political system go.

https://youtu.be/3Y3jE3B8HsE

Something more akin to France? Although seems they might be making 'France Great Again' as well.

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:03 am
by BRUTE
brute is hoping for something more Snow Crash

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:24 pm
by bryan
What is in the video Jake9870 posted? I am on my mobile's internet for a few days and have to avoid videos.. without watching it.. I very much dis-like France's approach to most things.

@brute, in a Snow Crash world.. how do you imagine EREers (or you personally) would be living? Near poverty level, unaffiliated w/ any corps or governments, dis-connected from the VR world? Such a world might motivate me to join up with a good corp instead of RE..

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:10 pm
by Jake9870
The video is an example of an alternative voting system. A way to avoid ending up with just two candidates/parties. The video advocates rounds of voting and being able to vote for multiple candidates in order of sequential preference. Ergo if your first choice in candidate is a 3rd party your 1st vote goes to them. If they are eliminated the vote will go to your second choice. This would help small/independent parties gather votes without fear of "your vote not counting"

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:27 pm
by bryan

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:50 pm
by BRUTE
@bryan: to be honest, brute hasn't thought it through. he just likes cyberpunk :) he might join a strong corp, too. or maybe those types of societies are awesome to retire in, just no books about that part.

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:09 pm
by Riggerjack
Agreed, we have a horrible voting system
I disagree. In our system, only swing States matter. Since I live in a blue by 2:1 margin state, I have never been bothered by a candidate. Here in WA, even primary candidates don't show up, usually. Trump was here once, I don't think Clinton could find us on a map, and as far as I can tell, never even sent an intern.

Sucks for swing States, I'm sure.

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:30 pm
by Campitor
Ego wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:26 pm


If someone, regardless of party affiliation, is NOT bothered by the fact that the Russian government likely influenced the results of the election then there is something wrong with that person. If someone is NOT bothered by the fact that the Russians continue to meddle (Calexit for instance) then I think it says a lot about them.
It's hard to be bothered by Russian influence when the US is so open and deliberate in their intervention in other countries politics and elections - and I'm talking about our allied nations. It's hard to be bothered about these Russian accusations of meddling when Hillary was a deeply flawed candidate to begin with. Trump vs Hillary was Godzilla vs the Smog Monster. It was hard to be bothered by the Russian leaks when the info that was published was never denounced as false by the dems. And it's not like the Russians rigged voter machines.

The election was basically the "pussy grabber" vs "I didn't know a personal server for government business was illegal despite having served on the Armed Services subcommittee on emerging threats and cyber terrorism." The losing side wants to blame the "deplorables" and the russkies instead of the DNC's turd-of-an-election strategy/candidate.

When you look at the States that went to Trump, in 2016 they produced a combined 828 billion dollars in exports. And an average of 77% of these jobs depend on manufactured goods to support these exports; the total number of these jobs depending on exports is 4,152,549. I got this information here: http://www.trade.gov/mas/ian/statereports/. I had to input the numbers into a spreadsheet to get the totals.

Trump promised to bring more manufacturing jobs back and to protect existing manufacturing jobs; his speeches had traction (I didn't vote for the grand-pubah-bloviator). Meanwhile Hillary's speeches on protecting manufacturing jobs didn't gain any traction - too much policy wonk talk to get voters engaged (I didn't vote for her either). She was a candidate with just too much baggage. The DNC screwed up by picking her. The working class didn't trust her. And the mainstream media didn't help either with their constant churn of terrorist coverage which fueled the xenophobic fires that helped Mr I'll-build-a-wall to win; the porous US/Mexican border didn't help either.

Someone from the DNC needs to put a stake through her future presidential ambitions. The only way she wins the presidency is if she runs against Bernie Madoff - and it would still be a tight race.

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:00 am
by Dragline
Oooh, looks like Dunning-Kruger x 2 today:

"I thought being President would be easier"

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-t ... ce=twitter

-- and --

"As the social psychologist David Dunning wrote during the campaign, “Some voters, especially those facing significant distress in their life, might like some of what they hear from Trump, but they do not know enough to hold him accountable for the serious gaffes he makes.” In other words, it’s not that they forgave Trump for being wrong, but rather that they failed “to recognize those gaffes as missteps” in the first place."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... 100926836/

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:00 am
by Dragline
Oooh, looks like Dunning-Kruger x 2 today:

"I thought being President would be easier"

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-t ... ce=twitter

-- and --

"As the social psychologist David Dunning wrote during the campaign, “Some voters, especially those facing significant distress in their life, might like some of what they hear from Trump, but they do not know enough to hold him accountable for the serious gaffes he makes.” In other words, it’s not that they forgave Trump for being wrong, but rather that they failed “to recognize those gaffes as missteps” in the first place."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/ ... 100926836/

Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 6:45 pm
by Spartan_Warrior
@Jacob, I think your model is Pareto-efficient in that it probably accounts for 80-90% of the voting populace. But in politics, as in permaculture, the interesting stuff happens at the margins. There are those small percentages who do "change shirts" based on the message, the candidate, whatever, and those people are the reason Clinton lost. If everyone simply voted by shirt color then Clinton would have won as was universally expected. But working class whites in traditionally Democratic strongholds like Michigan and Wisconsin--many of whom voted for Obama--instead turned out for Trump.

See: http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/ ... 55?ocid=sf

"Post-election analysis bears this out. Trump is quite popular not just his base but also amongst the next layer of the onion so to speak."

Also, I don't really see this as the case... aren't his approval ratings (deservedly) in the toilet? I've seen media and anecdotal reports of buyers' remorse among his supporters.