Trump - Clown Genius

[7Wannabe5]

jacob said: What this actually is ... is a refugee ban. It's just, we can't call it that w/o looking like jerks to most humans. Taking at least some responsibility of the consequences of one's actions is a fairly universal human value. "If you break it, you buy it."

Agree. I can't even deal with this issue anymore. The number one thing that makes me want to tear my hair out and stab my eyeballs with frustration is the lack of understanding of the vast diaspora of people who practice or come from a country/culture that majority practices Islam. For instance, I recently double-team substitute taught a classroom full of poorly behaved 6th graders, mostly boys recently immigrated from Yemen, with a recently displaced PhD immigrant from Iraq in his late 60s, who in a previous life was involved in a research project originated in Belgium that was attempting to ameliorate problems with khat addiction in villages in Yemen. The kids from Yemen aren't at all menacing (some of the kids from the projects can be), but they can be wild, disrespectful and constantly clowning, so it can be kind of like having to deal with 12 Vinnie Barbarinos in the same room. Anyways, my Iraqi colleague told me that the kids are much better behaved here than in the schools in Yemen, so we are doing a good job. OTOH, most of the older boys from Bangladesh. although equally poor, are quite well-behaved and literate-upon-arrival. For instance, I interacted with one 16 year old who had no English on his first day of school, and had no difficulty "talking" to him about the algebra assignment the group was attempting. Charming little 7 year old girls will present me with drawings they made for me, and explain how they learned a technique for shading at the school for art and dancing they attended before coming to America. All the kids run around and play outside in large groups after school, just like in some documentary about Ellis Island. They ride around 3 on a bike with no tires, toss basketballs while dressed in full hijab and little pink Converse, and, I kid you not, literally play pick-up games of cricket with found boards in litter strewn vacant lots. They love Elsa, Sponge Bob, and pizza. Here's what they would say if the media would ever talk to them rather than about them "My family is from ________. I am American! "

[Chad]

@ffj
I’m unable to understand how cutting taxes (revenue) and increasing spending (infrastructure, border wall, etc.) even remotely lowers the deficit, let alone the debt.

Oh, I agree the drone strikes are bad, as they again are a short-term solution for a long-term problem. I have said so before. But, who was I going to vote for previously? The other party was likely to up the number of drone strikes, so my only real recourse was to vote for less of them with Obama. (No, I’m not voting 3rd party, as in my view it’s a throwaway vote. Plus, I don’t like most of those people either.)

Yes, part of the protests are just because of Trump and, yes, the protestors should have been angrier about the strikes. Just because the protestors failed to protest the first time doesn’t mean they should fail to protest now.
It should be noted there were lawsuits brought against the Obama administration over drone strikes. This included ones by the ACLU. One example: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/ ... -kill-list

My argument against the ban is it doesn’t make us any safer and costs us a lot. The real cost will come when the next immigrant trying to start a company decides this type of policy suggests there is too much risk in starting a company in the US. How could one not be concerned in that position? http://fortune.com/2016/03/18/billion-d ... tudy-nfap/

No apologies necessary. I probably sounded harsher than I meant to in my anti-video comment. Even when I’m looking for information myself, I’m always angry when I click on a link I think is an article and I get a video. I don’t need 15 minutes of poor public speaking skills for two sentences of real information or, in many cases, no information.

[Chad]

@ffj
You may not read this, but that's fine. Politics is frustrating.

Again, I don't see how reducing revenue and spending more is going to keep the debt in check and see no reason to think that's even barely likely.

I would argue we should have been spending a ton of money during the 2nd worst downturn in US history (Keynesian), but we also should have been saving from roughly 2001-2007 during the good years (Austrian) and we should start saving again sometime in the last year or so.

I have been thinking about how no candidate, group, etc. ever dodges failure, hypocrisy, etc. the last few months. I have come to the conclusion that I don't think it's reasonable or even possible to find a candidate, group, etc. that is perfect. It doesn't exist and never has. Which means it's foolish on our part, and I have definitely done this, to expect to find this perfection. Especially, when politics doesn't always deal with 2+2=4 issues, where an answer for an issue is provable 100% of the time. Lots of gray and lots of variables to cloud everything. So, yes, consistency shouldn't be ignored, but perfect consistency should. It just can't exist.

[Ego]

I am not arguing whether we are justified in doing this or not, but I want to point out that Obama didn't suffer mass protests when people were dying because of his presidential actions. That is important to note, as it shows that most protesters don't really have Muslim interests at heart. Rather, they are simply a vehicle to attack Trump. If they didn't care that we were killing them, then why all of a sudden do they care that they can't come into our country for 90 days?

The people we try to hit with drone strikes are not the same people we vet to let into the country. "Them" is not a whole country. It is a sad state of affairs if that must be said aloud.

I have a friend who is a green card holder from Syria (UCLA grad) who was working to bring over his siblings. His life just changed drastically. But the problem is much worse than the relatively few from the seven countries who are affected by this order. Green card holders from every country are now second guessing their decision to base themselves in the US. An Australian told me the other day that she (hard science Phd) has started looking for jobs back in Australia. Another American friend (university instructor) is absolutely terrified that her female partner's green card will be revoked because it is based on their same sex marriage. Two weeks ago I would have said her fears were unfounded. Not any more.

He has pulled the stopper on a brain drain like we've never seen before.

It is interesting that the people who support this ban so fervently are those least likely to know anyone affected by it and least capable of understanding its true consequences.

[bryan]

I'll have to agree with @Ego. I think folks making the, partially valid, argument @ffj is aren't seeing the long-range effects, it's a blindspot to them. You can go online to any article on the Muslim Ban and see comments, from folks that think the protesters are just attacking Trump, like "I 100% support legal immigration..." Really? So you are against the EO then? Or you see comments like "It's just a temporary inconvenience for some folks"

@ffj, I think a big factor is Trump is entirely "un-Presidential" whereas Obama was quite the smooth operator and communicator. Trump's brand is gutter-trash whereas Obama won a freaking Nobel Peace Prize before he did anything..

> If they didn't care that we were killing them, then why all of a sudden do they care that they can't come into our country for 90 days?

Well, they are a different things for one (murder versus legal immigration).. but I'm not complaining that more people give a damn now and want to go protest. Though I won't be surprised when they stop giving a damn (and I will be waiting for all the republicans to start giving a damn about small government again ).

[bryan]

to add.. Maybe we should have another thread called "Bannon - Evil Genius"

It just occurred to me that the Muslim Ban is probably more insidious than I thought. Sure, some folks think it is temporary or warranted etc (including Trump?). But in fact Bannon knew that it would have farther-reaching effects, even if it got overturned by Congress/Courts. The signal it sends will result in fewer immigrants in the future. Basically the attractiveness of the USA is lower now (vs some EU countries, Canada, Oceania). Bannon is on record for not wanting essentially any immigrants, even high quality Asian Tech founders/CEOs. In that interview Trump disagreed, saying we should keep the high quality ones. Score another Bannon victory.. Though the protests and Yates thing may be salvaging some of the American brand.

[Chad]

Green card holders from every country are now second guessing their decision to base themselves in the US.

This can't be said enough.

[Fish]

So refugee ban is the tactical objective and curbing immigration is the strategic (deliberate) side-effect?

I struggle to come up with the motivation. The best I can come up with is decreasing EROEI will lead to a point where immigration is a net negative for the economy... as immigrants still require food, housing, etc. Meaning the US economy has maxed out such that humans are no longer the limiting reagent in the neverending quest for growth.

To speak nothing of the human and psychological toll this is going to take, maybe a closed-door policy (wall etc.) is an attempt to be ahead of the curve before the geopolitical game enters a more nasty zero-sum mode? Or have we arrived?

[bryan]

So refugee ban is the tactical objective and curbing immigration is the strategic (deliberate) side-effect?

I struggle to come up with the motivation.

Well, I haven't listened to Bannon enough to judge, but someone else already posted a documentary he wrote/directed. And here are some instances of his actions/opinions on race (the Asian thing is https://soundcloud.com/breitbart/breitb ... 15#t=16:23).

> The country is more than economy, it's a civic society.

lolwut? So Asians aren't a good part of society?

I think they (Thield/Trump/Bannon) are indeed geniuses.. but.. it's hard to tell who they are playing against/for.

[ducknalddon]

I think they (Thield/Trump/Bannon) are indeed geniuses.. but.. it's hard to tell who they are playing against/for.

I always thought they are playing for themselves, this is why as much as I find their views repugnant I don't agree that fascism is just around the corner.

[Chad]

It appears Putin is testing his new relationship with Trump by stirring up some fighting in the Ukraine:
https://www.ft.com/content/57fc2d60-e6d ... 8452263daf

Trump, of course, spends time insulting Australia.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... 8ec94fb5b1

Well, at least when Trump starts another useless war we won't have to worry about asking our allies to help, as we won't have any.

@fish

I struggle to come up with the motivation. The best I can come up with is decreasing EROEI will lead to a point where immigration is a net negative for the economy... as immigrants still require food, housing, etc. Meaning the US economy has maxed out such that humans are no longer the limiting reagent in the neverending quest for growth.

The problem is that current immigration, including illegal immigration, is really either at the high end (Silicon Valley) or at the low end (farm workers, basic construction labor, etc.), so it doesn't really impact the majority of jobs that are currently being automated. Though, one of the big ones in the semi-near future will be taxi drivers, as only 51% of taxi drivers are native-born.
http://blogs.voanews.com/all-about-amer ... -us-state/

[7Wannabe5]

bryan said: > The country is more than economy, it's a civic society.

lolwut? So Asians aren't a good part of society?

I think they (Thield/Trump/Bannon) are indeed geniuses.. but.. it's hard to tell who they are playing against/for.

You can't go back home to your family, back home to your childhood ... back home to a young man's dreams of glory and of fame ... back home to places in the country, back home to the old forms and systems of things which once seemed everlasting but which are changing all the time – back home to the escapes of Time and Memory.

[IlliniDave]

You can't go back home to your family, back home to your childhood ... back home to a young man's dreams of glory and of fame ... back home to places in the country, back home to the old forms and systems of things which once seemed everlasting but which are changing all the time – back home to the escapes of Time and Memory.

I'll accept that as a challenge!

[Chad]

@jacob
I have had minimal success at stopping "crimestop." I have a few friends who seem to be convinced by logical arguments for certain subjects, but when I see them again they seem to just have fallen back into a belief system or maybe an echo chamber. Of course, these friends are also the ones that are all over conspiracy theories, but think government is completely incompetent. They loved that Fox special on why the moon landings were fake.

My only real success is my father, but that situation is a little different.

[Ego]

Behind all the bluster is the elephant in the room. Trump seems to be trying to provoke this decoupling.

[Chad]

The problem with his stated goal of forcing the Chinese to stop depressing the value of the renmimbi is that he is about a decade late:

As Chinese inflation was far faster than that of the US or western Europe over this period, the renminbi grew too expensive compared with the dollar, rather than too cheap. For the past several years, China has needed to intervene to strengthen its currency, not to weaken it.

https://www.ft.com/content/5a89693a-91d ... 778b55a923

Trump is probably playing with fire on this one. He could easily trigger a weakening in the renmimbi, which directly impacts his desire to increase manufacturing jobs.

Also, is that a picture of a physical paper? Who reads those?

[Ego]

Also, is that a picture of a physical paper? Who reads those?

There are few things I miss about Soylent Towers. The recycle bin full of good newspapers is one. I don't know anyone who reads the FT in hardcopy any more.

[bryan]

@7Wannabe5

I'll have to add that to my reading list.

Iran stirring?: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/commen ... he_dollar/

But really, this morning (comment about Berkeley and National Prayer Time) I am done w/ Trump. I'll be sending a Bcc email to my friends listing chronological links that have informed my opinions and ask them if I am crazy.. if I'm not I'll more or less do the same thing in a letter to my Senator asking for impeachment.

I may share this list in a new thread or here as well.

2017 has too much momentum now for the USA as a whole to recover. It would take a super-effective leader or a tech breakthrough at this point. Even w/ impeachment I fear we will now be seeing some collapse. <insert sad Ron Paul "It's Happening" gif>

[userqname]

For impeachment to succeed in removing the president from office, a supermajority of both houses have to agree that he committed high crimes and misdemeanors worthy of removing him.

For that to occur, it has to be politically sound and virtually certain of success. IOW, enough senators and congressmen have to be absolutely certain that it will work, that he won't win and retaliate, and that the voters wont punish them for going through with it.

[bryan]

@userqname, my senators are both Republican (decent rankings, one probably wants to be President eventually) and my family also has Republican senators (extremely high ranking/influential and Trump supporters). The states are very red; if they can be flipped then impeachment is certain.

I can only do what I can do..