Trump - Clown Genius

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Dragline
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Dragline »

GandK wrote: The ironic thing to me is that the two groups (old disaffected white people and young disaffected college grads) have veered in completely opposite political directions in response to these upheavals, but the underlying issues are the same in both cases.
I don't think the young ones are as disaffected as the old ones. That's why the old ones get upset at the young ones for being "unrealistic".

The youthful nihilism of Generation X will turn to bitterness as it ages, as it did for Hemingway's "Lost Generation." Avoiding bitterness because you did not get what you thought you wanted or deserved or what other people have is a big challenge for a lot of us Xers. Many are looking for scapegoats.

Chad
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad »

Dragline wrote:Many are looking for scapegoats.
Though, some of the scapegoats are real...boomers.

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jennypenny
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by jennypenny »

*sigh* It doesn't matter what we (GenXers) think. There aren't enough of us to make a difference.

It's strange reading Neil Postman's books while watching The Trump Show. I wonder what he would have thought about it.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

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Edit: Yikes. Posted link that was in OP.
Last edited by theanimal on Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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jennypenny
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by jennypenny »

Bill Maher said some funny stuff yesterday regarding Hillary Clinton ... “Hillary, I love her, but she’s not good at this. She’s not good at it. I mean, in 2008, she lost to a black man with a Muslim name. Now she’s losing to a 74-year-old Jewish Socialist. I mean, Hillary, we’re making this as easy as we can for you. But you’re going to have to help a little.”

Gloria Steinem also made some bizarre comments about young women voting the way 'boys' vote, which proves how out-of-touch and irrelevant she's become. I can be a hardcore feminist at times (as some of you know ;) ), but that old school, bra-burning feminist rhetoric seems anachronistic in the context of this campaign. I think having people like Steinem and Fonda come out and publicly support Clinton will backfire and end up hurting her chances.

black_son_of_gray
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by black_son_of_gray »

jennypenny wrote:Bill Maher said some funny stuff yesterday regarding Hillary Clinton ...
Saw that myself and had a good chuckle too. His intro was on point last night.

Dragline
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Dragline »

jennypenny wrote:Bill Maher said some funny stuff yesterday regarding Hillary Clinton ... “Hillary, I love her, but she’s not good at this. She’s not good at it. I mean, in 2008, she lost to a black man with a Muslim name. Now she’s losing to a 74-year-old Jewish Socialist. I mean, Hillary, we’re making this as easy as we can for you. But you’re going to have to help a little.”

Gloria Steinem also made some bizarre comments about young women voting the way 'boys' vote, which proves how out-of-touch and irrelevant she's become. I can be a hardcore feminist at times (as some of you know ;) ), but that old school, bra-burning feminist rhetoric seems anachronistic in the context of this campaign. I think having people like Steinem and Fonda come out and publicly support Clinton will backfire and end up hurting her chances.
I think this is quite correct. Young professional women don't believe that they are so much as fighting against a dominant culture, but are assuming the mantle of a new dominant culture. (Consider what Leaning In really means.) Which is true -- like it or not, the Millennials will dominate due to sheer numbers if nothing else. The mistake Boomer women make is expecting some kind of fealty for what they went through. It's just not there.

The ratios of support for Sanders v. Clinton among the young are phenomenal and almost ridiculous -- like 5 to 1 or more. This is the real story, because it tells the future.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Dragline said: The mistake Boomer women make is expecting some kind of fealty for what they went through. It's just not there.
I am old Gen-X (born '65) and I have a mid-Millennial daughter (born '91.) Most of her friends/peers have mothers who are older than me, so in the Boomer range. They all think that their mothers are insane. Gloria Steinem was born in 1934, so silent generation feminist. That generation of feminists is closer to being the grandmother-of-Millennial age, so interesting, but irrelevant as a blacksmith. Many members of Gen-X aren't exactly seen as ideal role models by the Millennials either. Direct quote from my DD24 being "It is so embarrassing to have a hipster Dad."

What young Millennial female wants to "grow up" to be Hillary Clinton? Too many of them have witnessed the misery of that form of compromise up close and personal. My DD24 and her friends also think that I am insane, but a different flavor of insanity than the majority of their Boomer Moms. Based on my analysis of the occasions on which my daughter has or hasn't been embarrassed to present me as her mother, I think the sort of older female a millennial female might admire (want to "grow up to be") and, therefore, perhaps, also be inclined to vote for as POTUS, would be someone sort of like a cross between Cokie Roberts (born 1943) and Gwen Stefani (born 1969) with a smidge of Mrs. Santa Claus imagined as somebody who looks good playing beach volleyball in the mix.

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Ego
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Ego »

7Wannabe5 wrote:Based on my analysis of the occasions on which my daughter has or hasn't been embarrassed to present me as her mother, I think the sort of older female a millennial female might admire (want to "grow up to be") and, therefore, perhaps, also be inclined to vote for as POTUS, would be someone sort of like a cross between Cokie Roberts (born 1943) and Gwen Stefani (born 1969) with a smidge of Mrs. Santa Claus imagined as somebody who looks good playing beach volleyball in the mix.
Who is Elizabeth Warren, Alex?

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jennypenny
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by jennypenny »

I think someone like Tina Fey is the new face of feminism for Millennials.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Who is Elizabeth Warren, Alex?
bing-bing-bing...and Ego is our new Jeopardy champion.
jennypenny said: I think someone like Tina Fey is the new face of feminism for Millennials.
I think Tina Fey might vibe a little too much like your-youngest-aunt-who-got-stoned-while-she-was-supposed-to-be-babysitting-you to earn the trust/respect of the Millennials. Millennials don't like it when Gen-Xers try to act cool. Pretty much the most worst thing I ever did as a Mom was the time I mentioned to one of my daughter's friends that I was dating a guy who used to play bass with Parliament. Elizabeth Warren would never embarrass her daughter with such behavior.

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Ego
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Ego »

If Idiocracy is as accurate as it appears they will need to spawn their generational version of this which will probably look like this. Sad but true.

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jennypenny
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by jennypenny »

Bill Maher essay in the Hollywood Reporter.

Trumpalooza continues. Christie, Carson, and Fiorina are out. Jeb lives to fight another day. Kasich looked--and sounded--good. Cruz didn't. And poor Marco Rubio -- he worked so hard to entrench himself in the establishment for legitimacy, and now it's working against him.

On the other side, well, someone should tell Hillary Clinton what century this is. Last night's speech sounded like one Bill might have given when he was campaigning. I wonder if Bloomberg will jump in now. Bloomberg has plenty of money to throw around, but I can't see someone like him attracting anyone away from Sanders. He would steal Clinton's constituency, but apparently that wouldn't be enough to win. I think Biden might be able to jump in and play the middle between Clinton and Sanders, but not Bloomberg.

Chad
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad »

I really hope Bloomberg jumps in. He would get my vote. Of course, that's the kiss of death...Jon Huntsman.

I'm not sure Sanders winning New Hampshire is a huge deal. New Hampshire is almost always in play (Hillary beat Obama in 2008 and McCain beat Bush in 2000). When Sanders starts winning the states that matter it will get interesting.

Some stats on voter turnout at primaries and general elections:
http://www.electproject.org/2012g (general election stats)
http://www.electproject.org/2012p (primary stats)

New Hampshire 2012
Primary: 31.1% VEP (voting-eligible population)
General: 70.9% VEP

Ohio 2012
Primary: 14% VEP
General: 65.1% VEP

An interesting ticket would be Trump or Cruz vs Sanders vs Bloomberg. This might be a real opening for an independent candidate given the big difference between the primary voters and the general election voters in number and view:

What Happens When Extremists Win Primaries?
https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/sites/defa ... 4_Hall.pdf
I show that general-election voters punish the nomination of extreme candidates
from contested primaries, on average. In fact, the average electoral penalty to nominating
an extremist is so large that it causes an observable ideological shift in the district’s subsequent
roll-call voting in the opposite direction, towards the opponent party’s ideology. Primary voters
thus face a clear tradeoff, on average, between supporting a more “electable” candidate or voting
based on ideology and risking the loss of the seat to the other party
Bloomberg will seem to be the steady hand in that grouping. Though, the general voter is clueless about Wall Street and won't understand how Bloomberg's business isn't an investment bank that helped cause the Great Recession.

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GandK
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by GandK »

This morning I went into feedly and was greeted with this:

What's Wrong With Hillary?

This is the blog of Randy from the Without Bound documentary... he's that guy who talks like a Southern preacher.

Anyway, I couldn't help but chuckle. He's absolutely right. Her inner child, if she ever had one, is dead. Beyond dead, maybe. A zombie.

Regarding Bloomberg, I think he missed the bus this year.

I really enjoyed PJ O'Rourke's semi-satirical piece about all the candidates on the BBC web site earlier this week.

Dragline
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Dragline »

This article by Nate Silver hits on the head what Millennials are looking for (a seemingly odd combination of socialism and libertarianism), but have not found in the mainstream candidates. I have not seen part two yet: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why ... e-sanders/

Dragline
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Dragline »

I've been told by at least someone that each and every politician that they disagree with is "like Hitler." Stalin hardly gets any play at all. ;-)

Trump is a lot like Silvio Berlusconi -- the Italian media magnate that became Prime Minister. So is Bloomberg for that matter. Similar to the way they run businesses, I don't think any of them would feel ideologically bound by what they said orally pre-contract (pre-election) after they were elected the way career politicians who need cash and a band of loyalists for future campaigns do.

Chad
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

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Spartan_Warrior
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

As a Millennial, I would say Tina Fey and Elizabeth Warren are both relevant feminist figures for my age group.

RE: Fivethirtyeight article.

This one I liked. I also supported Paul in 2012, for the exact reason alluded to--the mainstream parties represent special interest groups, not the people. Paul and Sanders both railed against the bought-and-paid-for corporate oligarchy--lobbying, campaign finance, Wall Street cronyism, etc. That one issue was enough for me, because it is literally the issue that decides all others; although TBH I do feel more aligned with Sanders/liberalism on most issues e.g. income inequality, progressive taxes, etc.

RE: When Extremists Win paper. Honestly, it dismays me that Sanders's positions are painted as "extremist". IMO, that shows how far right America's political discourse is. I would argue Sanders is a movement to the center from the extremist right-wing corporate oligarchy we currently have. Princeton Study: US is oligarchy, not democracy

The "extremist" label is ironic, too, given polls from Pew, Associated Press, Huffington Post, and Gallup show a majority of Americans agree with his individual policies:

"Sixty percent of Americans agree with him that the “economic system unfairly favors the rich,” which may be one reason politicians in both parties are uncomfortably trying to fit into populist garb. Two-thirds of the American public think the rich pay too little in taxes. Two-thirds think CEO pay is too high. Three of four think climate change is a serious or very serious matter." http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2 ... tial-race/

If these are extremist positions, then Americans are extremists. But no, that's not true. It's just that Americans are overwhelmingly liberal, while our unrepresentative government is so far to the right that positions the majority approves of can be called "extremist".

I agree with Jenny that Bloomberg would not attract many, if any, Sanders supporters. Bloomberg combines Trump's liabilities of being an out-of-touch billionaire with Clinton's liabilities of ties to Wall Street and playing gate-keeper to the establishment status quo. IMO, if it came down to two billionaires versus Sanders, Sanders would have an absolute field day with that narrative. As he should, IMO.

RE: Munger article... no offense, but honestly, this was a good laugh.

"Munger thinks he’s “a little nuts,” saying that the Vermont senator is too fixated on income inequality, which he says is simply a consequence of democracy. He thinks that people will accept their economic status if it’s justified—though Sanders‘ position appears to be that it isn’t."

So the dwindling status of the American middle class... is justified. Just a consequence of "democracy" (which we no longer have... if he said "oligarchy" then he'd be right). I don't know if I've ever seen the conservative argument for wage slavery laid forth so nakedly! Yeah, it's totally justified for CEOs to earn 500x their employees. Totally justified that productivity has skyrocketed while middle class wages have stagnated for forty years. Totally justified for people like Munger and Buffett to pay lower percentages in taxes than their secretaries. Justified for Lloyd Blankfein to get a tax-payer bailout while claiming we "can't afford" social security. Justified to sell out American workers and hand control over to multinational corporations through trade agreements. And on and on.

Okay, now it's not so funny anymore.

TBH, watching billionaires like Munger try to justify income inequality, or billionaires like Bloomberg try to buy their way into power, is exactly the kind of thing that makes me and a million other Sanders supporters reach for our credit cards for the next micro-contribution.

"The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers." -- Leia Organa :D

Chad
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad »

Spartan_Warrior wrote:
The "extremist" label is ironic, too, given polls from Pew, Associated Press, Huffington Post, and Gallup show a majority of Americans agree with his individual policies:

"Sixty percent of Americans agree with him that the “economic system unfairly favors the rich,” which may be one reason politicians in both parties are uncomfortably trying to fit into populist garb. Two-thirds of the American public think the rich pay too little in taxes. Two-thirds think CEO pay is too high. Three of four think climate change is a serious or very serious matter." http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2 ... tial-race/
But, this is my problem with Sanders, and most of the other candidates for that matter. These aren't policies they are views. His views aren't extremist, I agree with many of them, but some of his actual policies concerning these seem to be.

It's also an enormous problem with the general public who votes on emotion not policy. Thus, we get debates about views/opinions, but not actual policies.

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