Trump - Clown Genius

Should you squeeze the toothpaste tube in the middle or from the end?
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cmonkey
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by cmonkey » Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:34 pm

Hillbilly Elegy is now #2 on the list. 114 holds at my library.

I don't know about converting any clowns, but this past week is probably tipping people who are on the fence about closing their social media accounts. It's working for DW anyway.

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Ego
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Ego » Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:53 pm

jacob wrote:I'm wondering if anyone has any success stories in terms of unclowning any clowns?
No success here, but I believe it is useful to distinguish between willful-clowns and unknowing-clowns. The willful-clowns, those who decide to pretend that this is all okay, must be made to know that they will pay a price for their willful-clowniness. They need to understand that there will not be a truth and reconciliation commission where all will be forced to forgive.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by jacob » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:54 pm

I used "clown" because it's in the thread title, but on second thought, it's obviously an unnecessarily inflammatory word.

What I meant [by clowns] are those who engage in crimestop, specifically the part I bolded below. I'd hate to call them crimestoppers because the irony would probably be lost "by construction" :? ... and before anyone here takes offense, I mostly consider this forum the exception to the rule observed everywhere else so far.
1984 wrote:The first and simplest stage in the discipline, which can be taught even to young children, is called, in Newspeak, CRIMESTOP. CRIMESTOP means the faculty of stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any dangerous thought. It includes the power of not grasping analogies, of failing to perceive logical errors, of misunderstanding the simplest arguments if they are inimical to Ingsoc, and of being bored or repelled by any train of thought which is capable of leading in a heretical direction. CRIMESTOP, in short, means protective stupidity... orthodoxy in the full sense demands a control over one's own mental processes as complete as that of a contortionist over his body.
Here "dangerous thought" means switching shirt-color ... or taking your shirt off/refusing to wear one... or even remotely acknowledging [to oneself or to the public] that one's position contains potential flaws or that truth is not necessarily found exactly in between opposing positions.

I see a few different species in this quote which I've also recognized out there in the real world. People who favor slogan-sized bites (the majority, really). People who tl;dr any argument larger than a meme once it becomes clear that they have to think in order to understand it. People who are selectively-logical and extremely skilled in misinterpreting any statement that they disagree with to the point of being an exercise in extreme frustration to listen to. What's funny is that rarely does one person exhibit all traits. People usually pick a mode. I also notice that these are all passive actions. There's also a much smaller group (the clown geniuses) who are capable of actively manufacturing source material for these specific groups of "crimestoppers" to use.

It's pretty much the political analogy of selling 20 different brands of canned tomato to the consumer so that the consumer believes they're the ones making deliberate choices instead of realizing they're chumps or pawns in a greater game #platoscave Another concept that's worth bringing up is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_id ... _innocents just to provide a different perspective.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by bryan » Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:20 pm

jacob wrote: I feel like another Wheaton table is coming up. I'm wondering if anyone has any success stories in terms of unclowning any clowns?
Not really, but I think it's doable for, at least, the Muslim Ban (where there exists a lot of incongruity).

_Quickly_ react to each one in a short (low-effort) and rational manner, usually linking to primary sources. They'll reply back with something diversionary or incendiary but I counter with "agreement" using their language and re-iterate primary point or maybe add in my own diversionary alt-facts from the last 8 years or from alt-alt-fact sources (doomers/libertarians/neutral news/etc). I try to highlight the simplest of ironies by being complicit in their own language (in-group debating), etc.

Can't say this scales or works all that well but at least for the Muslim Ban my own "clown genius" contact has resorted to avoiding the topic (he shares ~5 fake news stories each day). The posts I responded to received _far_ less likes than the other topics I don't. I didn't receive any idiot replies other than perhaps an initial reply where I do the counter above.

It's not super effective (I doubt anyone read the exchanges and decided to call their Senators), but I have to do it for my own sanity.. Then again I did get a few PMs from normal friends (one who was actually a Trump shit-poster pre-election) expressing the amazement at the stupidity on display (e.g. calling a direct link to court documents a liberal media story) etc.

Maybe better memes would work?
jacob wrote: I don't really care to debate any of the above points. What I'm more interested is is the almost complete lack of analysis anywhere. I wrote this post because I haven't seen a summary like I put together here ANYWHERE else. I find it fundamentally disturbing that the focus everywhere has moved from "lets analyze the why and the where of what's going on" to "look at the genius ways the clown demographic is strategically being manipulated". It's a sad thing to watch in a democracy.
Yeah, summary like that mostly exists in folks' Twitter histories afaict.. not the best for discover-ability.


All these manipulated clowns seem to be older boomers. Too bad their parents are dead, else i imagine those parents could give them a good talking to.
Last edited by bryan on Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by scriptbunny » Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:26 pm

@jacob, as @bryan mentions, you can tell at least some journalists know all this based on their Twitter feed even if it isn't explicitly reflected in their reporting. Off the top of my head, Dara Lind at Vox comes to mind calling out some of the reflexive things being said on the left re: "Muslim ban" and country list intersecting with Trump business dealings.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:19 am

jacob said: What this actually is ... is a refugee ban. It's just, we can't call it that w/o looking like jerks to most humans. Taking at least some responsibility of the consequences of one's actions is a fairly universal human value. "If you break it, you buy it."
Agree. I can't even deal with this issue anymore. The number one thing that makes me want to tear my hair out and stab my eyeballs with frustration is the lack of understanding of the vast diaspora of people who practice or come from a country/culture that majority practices Islam. For instance, I recently double-team substitute taught a classroom full of poorly behaved 6th graders, mostly boys recently immigrated from Yemen, with a recently displaced PhD immigrant from Iraq in his late 60s, who in a previous life was involved in a research project originated in Belgium that was attempting to ameliorate problems with khat addiction in villages in Yemen. The kids from Yemen aren't at all menacing (some of the kids from the projects can be), but they can be wild, disrespectful and constantly clowning, so it can be kind of like having to deal with 12 Vinnie Barbarinos in the same room. Anyways, my Iraqi colleague told me that the kids are much better behaved here than in the schools in Yemen, so we are doing a good job. OTOH, most of the older boys from Bangladesh. although equally poor, are quite well-behaved and literate-upon-arrival. For instance, I interacted with one 16 year old who had no English on his first day of school, and had no difficulty "talking" to him about the algebra assignment the group was attempting. Charming little 7 year old girls will present me with drawings they made for me, and explain how they learned a technique for shading at the school for art and dancing they attended before coming to America. All the kids run around and play outside in large groups after school, just like in some documentary about Ellis Island. They ride around 3 on a bike with no tires, toss basketballs while dressed in full hijab and little pink Converse, and, I kid you not, literally play pick-up games of cricket with found boards in litter strewn vacant lots. They love Elsa, Sponge Bob, and pizza. Here's what they would say if the media would ever talk to them rather than about them "My family is from ________. I am American! :D "

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad » Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:47 am

@ffj
I’m unable to understand how cutting taxes (revenue) and increasing spending (infrastructure, border wall, etc.) even remotely lowers the deficit, let alone the debt.

Oh, I agree the drone strikes are bad, as they again are a short-term solution for a long-term problem. I have said so before. But, who was I going to vote for previously? The other party was likely to up the number of drone strikes, so my only real recourse was to vote for less of them with Obama. (No, I’m not voting 3rd party, as in my view it’s a throwaway vote. Plus, I don’t like most of those people either.)

Yes, part of the protests are just because of Trump and, yes, the protestors should have been angrier about the strikes. Just because the protestors failed to protest the first time doesn’t mean they should fail to protest now.
It should be noted there were lawsuits brought against the Obama administration over drone strikes. This included ones by the ACLU. One example: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/ ... -kill-list

My argument against the ban is it doesn’t make us any safer and costs us a lot. The real cost will come when the next immigrant trying to start a company decides this type of policy suggests there is too much risk in starting a company in the US. How could one not be concerned in that position? http://fortune.com/2016/03/18/billion-d ... tudy-nfap/

No apologies necessary. I probably sounded harsher than I meant to in my anti-video comment. Even when I’m looking for information myself, I’m always angry when I click on a link I think is an article and I get a video. I don’t need 15 minutes of poor public speaking skills for two sentences of real information or, in many cases, no information.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by ffj » Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:23 am

@Chad
Oh I doubt he will lower the debt at all, but our previous president DOUBLED it. As long as Trump keeps it remotely in check he comes out a winner. The best we can hope for anymore for any president is that they contain it enough that it doesn't sink our nation.

The hypocrisy of this selective outrage is what annoys me. http://www.alternet.org/grayzone-projec ... tries-2016
I am not arguing whether we are justified in doing this or not, but I want to point out that Obama didn't suffer mass protests when people were dying because of his presidential actions. That is important to note, as it shows that most protesters don't really have Muslim interests at heart. Rather, they are simply a vehicle to attack Trump. If they didn't care that we were killing them, then why all of a sudden do they care that they can't come into our country for 90 days?

And I want to say to you that I agree that poor behavior should be protested, but consistency is important too. Otherwise, your movement is easily discredited and I think that is happening now. I hear a lot of talk about Trump trying to habituate us, condition us to accept poor behavior as the norm. I would argue that when everything he does is met with massive protest that also habituates people. It has the look of dishonesty, because some of things he is doing and will do is going to help this nation. He has to be given credit for the things he does right along with the criticism for the things he does wrong, otherwise opponents will be ignored. There has to be a balance.

Anyway, thank you again for civil discourse, but I am taking a break from the politics again. It's tiring, and as Jacob's post has alluded to there's not much of a point to it really. Everybody just ends up pissed off. ;)

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad » Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:13 am

@ffj
You may not read this, but that's fine. Politics is frustrating.

Again, I don't see how reducing revenue and spending more is going to keep the debt in check and see no reason to think that's even barely likely.

I would argue we should have been spending a ton of money during the 2nd worst downturn in US history (Keynesian), but we also should have been saving from roughly 2001-2007 during the good years (Austrian) and we should start saving again sometime in the last year or so.

I have been thinking about how no candidate, group, etc. ever dodges failure, hypocrisy, etc. the last few months. I have come to the conclusion that I don't think it's reasonable or even possible to find a candidate, group, etc. that is perfect. It doesn't exist and never has. Which means it's foolish on our part, and I have definitely done this, to expect to find this perfection. Especially, when politics doesn't always deal with 2+2=4 issues, where an answer for an issue is provable 100% of the time. Lots of gray and lots of variables to cloud everything. So, yes, consistency shouldn't be ignored, but perfect consistency should. It just can't exist.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Ego » Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:53 pm

ffj wrote: I am not arguing whether we are justified in doing this or not, but I want to point out that Obama didn't suffer mass protests when people were dying because of his presidential actions. That is important to note, as it shows that most protesters don't really have Muslim interests at heart. Rather, they are simply a vehicle to attack Trump. If they didn't care that we were killing them, then why all of a sudden do they care that they can't come into our country for 90 days?
The people we try to hit with drone strikes are not the same people we vet to let into the country. "Them" is not a whole country. It is a sad state of affairs if that must be said aloud.

I have a friend who is a green card holder from Syria (UCLA grad) who was working to bring over his siblings. His life just changed drastically. But the problem is much worse than the relatively few from the seven countries who are affected by this order. Green card holders from every country are now second guessing their decision to base themselves in the US. An Australian told me the other day that she (hard science Phd) has started looking for jobs back in Australia. Another American friend (university instructor) is absolutely terrified that her female partner's green card will be revoked because it is based on their same sex marriage. Two weeks ago I would have said her fears were unfounded. Not any more.

He has pulled the stopper on a brain drain like we've never seen before.

It is interesting that the people who support this ban so fervently are those least likely to know anyone affected by it and least capable of understanding its true consequences.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by bryan » Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:10 pm

I'll have to agree with @Ego. I think folks making the, partially valid, argument @ffj is aren't seeing the long-range effects, it's a blindspot to them. You can go online to any article on the Muslim Ban and see comments, from folks that think the protesters are just attacking Trump, like "I 100% support legal immigration..." Really? So you are against the EO then? Or you see comments like "It's just a temporary inconvenience for some folks" :x

@ffj, I think a big factor is Trump is entirely "un-Presidential" whereas Obama was quite the smooth operator and communicator. Trump's brand is gutter-trash whereas Obama won a freaking Nobel Peace Prize before he did anything..

> If they didn't care that we were killing them, then why all of a sudden do they care that they can't come into our country for 90 days?

Well, they are a different things for one (murder versus legal immigration).. but I'm not complaining that more people give a damn now and want to go protest. Though I won't be surprised when they stop giving a damn (and I will be waiting for all the republicans to start giving a damn about small government again :lol: ).

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by bryan » Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:40 pm

to add.. Maybe we should have another thread called "Bannon - Evil Genius"

It just occurred to me that the Muslim Ban is probably more insidious than I thought. Sure, some folks think it is temporary or warranted etc (including Trump?). But in fact Bannon knew that it would have farther-reaching effects, even if it got overturned by Congress/Courts. The signal it sends will result in fewer immigrants in the future. Basically the attractiveness of the USA is lower now (vs some EU countries, Canada, Oceania). Bannon is on record for not wanting essentially any immigrants, even high quality Asian Tech founders/CEOs. In that interview Trump disagreed, saying we should keep the high quality ones. Score another Bannon victory.. Though the protests and Yates thing may be salvaging some of the American brand.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad » Wed Feb 01, 2017 6:50 pm

Ego wrote:Green card holders from every country are now second guessing their decision to base themselves in the US.
This can't be said enough.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Fish » Wed Feb 01, 2017 7:42 pm

So refugee ban is the tactical objective and curbing immigration is the strategic (deliberate) side-effect?

I struggle to come up with the motivation. The best I can come up with is decreasing EROEI will lead to a point where immigration is a net negative for the economy... as immigrants still require food, housing, etc. Meaning the US economy has maxed out such that humans are no longer the limiting reagent in the neverending quest for growth.

To speak nothing of the human and psychological toll this is going to take, maybe a closed-door policy (wall etc.) is an attempt to be ahead of the curve before the geopolitical game enters a more nasty zero-sum mode? Or have we arrived?

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by bryan » Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:01 pm

Fish wrote:So refugee ban is the tactical objective and curbing immigration is the strategic (deliberate) side-effect?

I struggle to come up with the motivation.
Well, I haven't listened to Bannon enough to judge, but someone else already posted a documentary he wrote/directed. And here are some instances of his actions/opinions on race (the Asian thing is https://soundcloud.com/breitbart/breitb ... 15#t=16:23).

> The country is more than economy, it's a civic society.

lolwut? So Asians aren't a good part of society?

I think they (Thield/Trump/Bannon) are indeed geniuses.. but.. it's hard to tell who they are playing against/for.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by ducknalddon » Thu Feb 02, 2017 3:09 am

bryan wrote:I think they (Thield/Trump/Bannon) are indeed geniuses.. but.. it's hard to tell who they are playing against/for.
I always thought they are playing for themselves, this is why as much as I find their views repugnant I don't agree that fascism is just around the corner.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad » Thu Feb 02, 2017 6:55 am

It appears Putin is testing his new relationship with Trump by stirring up some fighting in the Ukraine:
https://www.ft.com/content/57fc2d60-e6d ... 8452263daf

Trump, of course, spends time insulting Australia.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... 8ec94fb5b1

Well, at least when Trump starts another useless war we won't have to worry about asking our allies to help, as we won't have any.

@fish
I struggle to come up with the motivation. The best I can come up with is decreasing EROEI will lead to a point where immigration is a net negative for the economy... as immigrants still require food, housing, etc. Meaning the US economy has maxed out such that humans are no longer the limiting reagent in the neverending quest for growth.
The problem is that current immigration, including illegal immigration, is really either at the high end (Silicon Valley) or at the low end (farm workers, basic construction labor, etc.), so it doesn't really impact the majority of jobs that are currently being automated. Though, one of the big ones in the semi-near future will be taxi drivers, as only 51% of taxi drivers are native-born.
http://blogs.voanews.com/all-about-amer ... -us-state/

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:05 am

bryan said: > The country is more than economy, it's a civic society.

lolwut? So Asians aren't a good part of society?

I think they (Thield/Trump/Bannon) are indeed geniuses.. but.. it's hard to tell who they are playing against/for.

You can't go back home to your family, back home to your childhood ... back home to a young man's dreams of glory and of fame ... back home to places in the country, back home to the old forms and systems of things which once seemed everlasting but which are changing all the time – back home to the escapes of Time and Memory.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by IlliniDave » Thu Feb 02, 2017 7:40 am

7Wannabe5 wrote:
You can't go back home to your family, back home to your childhood ... back home to a young man's dreams of glory and of fame ... back home to places in the country, back home to the old forms and systems of things which once seemed everlasting but which are changing all the time – back home to the escapes of Time and Memory.
I'll accept that as a challenge! :)

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad » Thu Feb 02, 2017 8:00 am

@jacob
I have had minimal success at stopping "crimestop." I have a few friends who seem to be convinced by logical arguments for certain subjects, but when I see them again they seem to just have fallen back into a belief system or maybe an echo chamber. Of course, these friends are also the ones that are all over conspiracy theories, but think government is completely incompetent. They loved that Fox special on why the moon landings were fake.

My only real success is my father, but that situation is a little different.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Ego » Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:19 am

Behind all the bluster is the elephant in the room. Trump seems to be trying to provoke this decoupling.

Image

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad » Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:59 am

The problem with his stated goal of forcing the Chinese to stop depressing the value of the renmimbi is that he is about a decade late:
As Chinese inflation was far faster than that of the US or western Europe over this period, the renminbi grew too expensive compared with the dollar, rather than too cheap. For the past several years, China has needed to intervene to strengthen its currency, not to weaken it.
https://www.ft.com/content/5a89693a-91d ... 778b55a923

Trump is probably playing with fire on this one. He could easily trigger a weakening in the renmimbi, which directly impacts his desire to increase manufacturing jobs.

Also, is that a picture of a physical paper? Who reads those? :lol:

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Ego » Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:10 am

Chad wrote:Also, is that a picture of a physical paper? Who reads those? :lol:
There are few things I miss about Soylent Towers. The recycle bin full of good newspapers is one. I don't know anyone who reads the FT in hardcopy any more.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by bryan » Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:21 pm

@7Wannabe5

I'll have to add that to my reading list.

Iran stirring?: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/commen ... he_dollar/

But really, this morning (comment about Berkeley and National Prayer Time) I am done w/ Trump. I'll be sending a Bcc email to my friends listing chronological links that have informed my opinions and ask them if I am crazy.. if I'm not I'll more or less do the same thing in a letter to my Senator asking for impeachment.

I may share this list in a new thread or here as well.

2017 has too much momentum now for the USA as a whole to recover. It would take a super-effective leader or a tech breakthrough at this point. Even w/ impeachment I fear we will now be seeing some collapse. <insert sad Ron Paul "It's Happening" gif>

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by userqname » Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:31 pm

For impeachment to succeed in removing the president from office, a supermajority of both houses have to agree that he committed high crimes and misdemeanors worthy of removing him.

For that to occur, it has to be politically sound and virtually certain of success. IOW, enough senators and congressmen have to be absolutely certain that it will work, that he won't win and retaliate, and that the voters wont punish them for going through with it.

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