Trump - Clown Genius

Should you squeeze the toothpaste tube in the middle or from the end?
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Chad
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad » Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:43 pm

I really hope he doesn't understand what he is doing. If he does, this is all very dangerous.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-claims ... 17625.html

George the original one
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by George the original one » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:07 pm

We're getting the clown genius president we knew as a candidate before the election. Those who believed it was an act and he would be different were regrettably mistaken.

scriptbunny
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by scriptbunny » Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:29 pm

Chad wrote:I really hope he doesn't understand what he is doing. If he does, this is all very dangerous.
I don't think he understands what he's doing, nor do I think that makes it any less dangerous.

subgard
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by subgard » Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:17 pm

I really hope he doesn't understand what he is doing. If he does, this is all very dangerous.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-claims ... 17625.html
It's a classic psychopath trick.

In interpersonal life, psychopaths seek to destroy the credibility of those around them before they even say anything bad about the psychopath.
The more likely a person is to report something negative about the psychopath, the more likely the psychopath will do this. If the psychopath suspects you've realized what they're really like, prepare for a full on character assassination behind your back.

Trump will continue to do this. Notice how he attempted to discredit the Congressional Budget office before they even reported on the healthcare replacement plan.

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BRUTE
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by BRUTE » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:51 pm

tax returns leaked

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by George the original one » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:53 pm

Somewhere in the beginning, Trump said something to the effect that he could be different things to different people. And now president Trump is no longer candidate Trump... just WHO did the country elect?!? Today's flip-flop quotes:

NATO: "I said it was obsolete. It's no longer obsolete," Trump said, adding that the Transatlantic alliance was adapting to the broader mission against Islamic militants that he had urged.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-says-n ... 40818.html

Interest rates: “I do like a low-interest rate policy, I must be honest with you,” Trump told the Journal.
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/trum ... 53931.html
President Donald Trump said Wednesday the U.S. dollar “is getting too strong” and he would prefer the Federal Reserve keep interest rates low.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-says ... 1492024312

Chinese currency manipulation: Mr. Trump, in an interview with The Wall Street Journal, also said his administration won’t label China a currency manipulator in a report due this week.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-says ... 1492024312

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BRUTE
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by BRUTE » Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:20 pm

one thing that seems unique to Trump, as far as brute has experienced in humans: he does not seem to hold any beliefs. i.e. his thoughts are entirely ephemeral. he can literally contradict the beginning of the sentence at the end of the sentence, and not conceive a logical contradiction.

brute therefore thinks it's a mistake to attribute a mental model to Trump that centers around "beliefs", "fli-flopping", or "lying". there's just no there there.

Jake9870
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Jake9870 » Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:48 am

If one holds no firm moral beliefs and only bids to the will of the people that is the perfect politician, no?

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Dragline
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Dragline » Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:36 am

No. The masses are asses and often want leaders to take actions that are often illegal in a "nation of laws" that protects individual rights (see Federalist Papers #s 10, 51), as the ancient will of crowds is to select arbitrary scapegoats and punish them. A bad politician relies upon and exploits the scapegoating mechanism for his own self-aggrandizement A good politician balances leadership, wisdom and the so-called "will of the people."

Trump believes in himself and in publicity to make himself "look good", particularly involving television. But he doesn't want to work too hard, either.

He is exactly what his history says he would be. Leopards don't change their spots, especially at age 70. Expect more missile strikes, ship and troop movements after he checks his poll numbers.

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BRUTE
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by BRUTE » Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:36 am

it seems Dragline's "good" vs "bad" judgement is a personal preference. it definitely does not seem to correlate with "successful" and "unsuccessful" politicians in the sense of evolutionary fitness.

in fact, brute would suggest that the current system actively screens for and rewards the type of politician described by Jake9870

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by black_son_of_gray » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:53 am

BRUTE wrote:
Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:36 am
it definitely does not seem to correlate with "successful" and "unsuccessful" politicians in the sense of evolutionary fitness.
I think you're stretching a little too far. Evolution works on populations, not individuals, and over relatively long time scales. Also, "success" here is entirely dependent on time frame. Are extant horses an evolutionary success, because they are still around today, or a failure because they are the last branch remaining on a tree that is otherwise extinct? (Or are you referring to the evolving preferences of voters?)

An individual politician may be easily able to assume a powerful position, so that may be construed as "success" on a smaller scale (for that politician, at that time), but on a longer time scale and broader level that may be a "failure" for society/governance (e.g. if someone wholly incapable of wielding that power appropriately actually gets it, acting like a bull in a china shop) . Perhaps @BRUTE and @dragline just have different scales of observation.

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Dragline
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Dragline » Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:58 am

You are correct -- good/bad is an opinion. There are no "objective measures" for politicians that are not subjective in-and-of themselves by definition.

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BRUTE
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by BRUTE » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:40 pm

brute agrees with humans.

interesting that Dragline seems to judge a politician's goodness by the degree in which they will insulate effective power from the will of the unwashed masses. somewhat elitist (no judgement).

where brute differs is, what should a politician do instead? if not the will of the unwashed masses, what will will be enacted?

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Dragline
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Dragline » Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:50 pm

You'll find your answers in the writings/speeches of Edmund Burke and the Federalist Papers I mentioned. This is why the U.S. does not have a democracy, but a representative government.

"In 1774, Burke's Speech to the Electors at Bristol at the Conclusion of the Poll was noted for its defence of the principles of representative government against the notion that elected officials should merely be delegates:

... it ought to be the happiness and glory of a representative to live in the strictest union, the closest correspondence, and the most unreserved communication with his constituents. Their wishes ought to have great weight with him; their opinion, high respect; their business, unremitted attention. It is his duty to sacrifice his repose, his pleasures, his satisfactions, to theirs; and above all, ever, and in all cases, to prefer their interest to his own. But his unbiased opinion, his mature judgment, his enlightened conscience, he ought not to sacrifice to you, to any man, or to any set of men living. These he does not derive from your pleasure; no, nor from the law and the constitution. They are a trust from Providence, for the abuse of which he is deeply answerable. Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.[63]

Political scientist Hanna Pitkin points out that Burke linked the interest of the district with the proper behaviour of its elected official, explaining, "Burke conceives of broad, relatively fixed interest, few in number and clearly defined, of which any group or locality has just one. These interests are largely economic or associated with particular localities whose livelihood they characterize, in his over-all prosperity they involve."[64]

Burke was a leading sceptic with respect to democracy. While admitting that theoretically, in some cases it might be desirable, he insisted a democratic government in Britain in his day would not only be inept, but also oppressive. He opposed democracy for three basic reasons. First, government required a degree of intelligence and breadth of knowledge of the sort that occurred rarely among the common people. Second, he thought that if they had the vote, common people had dangerous and angry passions that could be aroused easily by demagogues; he feared that the authoritarian impulses that could be empowered by these passions would undermine cherished traditions and established religion, leading to violence and confiscation of property. Third, Burke warned that democracy would create a tyranny over unpopular minorities, who needed the protection of the upper classes."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Burke

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bryan
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by bryan » Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:29 pm

With the technology we have today, it seems possible to try out more direct democracies at the state/county/city/neighbourhood level.. and even do away with such rigid borders anyway and calculate the replacement concept of "borders" in an automated way via the data (though I'm sure some of this would lend itself to politics as usual).

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BRUTE
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by BRUTE » Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:07 pm

Dragline wrote:First, government required a degree of intelligence and breadth of knowledge of the sort that occurred rarely among the common people. Second, he thought that if they had the vote, common people had dangerous and angry passions that could be aroused easily by demagogues; he feared that the authoritarian impulses that could be empowered by these passions would undermine cherished traditions and established religion, leading to violence and confiscation of property. Third, Burke warned that democracy would create a tyranny over unpopular minorities, who needed the protection of the upper classes."
check, check, and check. but what will or agenda should the elite enforce? their own? some enlightened greater good? which one?

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Dragline
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Dragline » Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:32 pm

The answer to your question is in the speech above. They (yes, its a brand newly accepted singular pronoun as of a few weeks ago) ought to act in the best interests of their constituents overall, which may or may not be what the constituents are clamoring for at the moment. And then be able to explain their decisions.

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Ego
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Ego » Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:18 pm

Bikeshedding. Or, if you prefer, rearranging deck chairs on the presidency.

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Ego
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Ego » Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:47 am

A court ordered FISA warrant was issued. That requires probably cause. In this case, probably cause that Page was "acting as an agent of a foreign power".

http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/18/politics/ ... index.html

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Dragline
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Dragline » Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:58 am

You mean "probable cause." It's not a particularly high legal hurdle, but it is a hurdle.

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Ego
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Ego » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:13 pm

Oh man, that made me laugh out loud. Probably probable. I was still asleep.

Yes, a judge looked at the evidence and decided that a reasonable person would conclude that the president's foreign policy advisor was working as a foreign agent. We don't have the evidence itself, but that fact says a lot.

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Tyler9000
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Tyler9000 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:41 pm

Ego wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:13 pm
We don't have the evidence itself, but that fact says a lot.
Actually, we do. It's the famous "Trump dossier" released by Buzzfeed a few months ago. The one of "golden showers" fame containing a few easily falsifiable claims. It was written by a former British Intelligence agent hired by Democrat opposition research firm Fusion GPS to dig up dirt on Trump during the election. Not exactly a politically neutral piece of intelligence.

The way people react to news regarding Trump truly is a Rorschach test.

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Ego
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Ego » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:11 pm

Tyler9000 wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:41 pm
Ego wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:13 pm
We don't have the evidence itself, but that fact says a lot.
The way people react to news regarding Trump truly is a Rorschach test.
Rorschach indeed.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/na ... 607cc3417b

The government’s application for the surveillance order targeting Page included a lengthy declaration that laid out investigators’ basis for believing that Page was an agent of the Russian government and knowingly engaged in clandestine intelligence activities on behalf of Moscow, officials said.

Among other things, the application cited contacts that he had with a Russian intelligence operative in New York City in 2013, officials said. Those contacts had earlier surfaced in a federal espionage case brought by the Justice Department against the intelligence operative and two other Russian agents. In addition, the application said Page had other contacts with Russian operatives that have not been publicly disclosed, officials said.

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jennypenny
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by jennypenny » Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:23 pm

The worst part of Comey's disclosure was that it turns out the FBI was investigating both presidential candidates in the months leading up to the election.

We deserve everything we get if we let our political parties serve up such flawed candidates.

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Chad
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:29 am

Agreed. Though, by no means are they equally flawed.

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