Trump - Clown Genius

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jennypenny
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by jennypenny »

The fact that the term "Homeland Education" doesn't make me flinch tells you how far we've come (fallen?). Can you imagine going back to high school (early 80's) and trying to explain the Department of Homeland Security to our younger selves??


re:voting
A person's individual vote might not count for much wrt who gets elected. OTOH, your participation matters. All political candidates cater to senior citizens because they vote in large numbers. It surprises me that Millennials haven't figured out yet that they are potentially the biggest player in the political arena. All they need to do is vote consistently and in large numbers, and politicians would be forced to cater to them too.

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GandK
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by GandK »

jennypenny wrote:re:voting
:lol: I initially parsed this as "revolting."

And it did not appear out of place in this conversation.

OldPro
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by OldPro »

Toska2, it isn't about how much influence YOUR vote has on the system if you vote. It isn't likely that your vote will be THE deciding vote in an election. It is as jennypenny says, about participation.

If you decide to vote, it is likely that will involve other factors. For example, you may talk to others and they may decide to vote. You may influence a group of peers to vote, etc. As jennypenny says, millennials could and should waken up to the fact that they now have the opportunity to really make their voices heard. In 2016, the Millennials will for the FIRST time, physically outnumber the Boomers. The difference is that a higher percentage of Boomers vote than the percentage of Millenials who have voted so far. So it is almost certain that the Boomers will have a bigger impact on any election still than the Millenials will.

I don't know if you belong to the Millenial generation or not Toska2, but you do belong to various groups, we all do. You belong to the ERE group for example. Even participating in this conversation may influence others. The question is, how are you influencing others, whether intentionally or not, if you don't vote?

And conversely, if you are a Boomer as I am, you may decide you better start voting if you don't want to see the Millenials start dominating elections. :lol:

Chad
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad »

jennypenny wrote:The fact that the term "Homeland Education" doesn't make me flinch tells you how far we've come (fallen?). Can you imagine going back to high school (early 80's) and trying to explain the Department of Homeland Security to our younger selves??
It still gives me the creeps when I hear it. It sounds like it should be part of The Man in the High Castle.

Chad
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad »

Maybe the politicians should be catering to the Millennials, but just don't know it yet. The politicians/party leaders are more of a lagging indicator than a predicting one. This election maybe when they realize it.

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GandK
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by GandK »

Chad wrote:Maybe the politicians should be catering to the Millennials, but just don't know it yet. The politicians/party leaders are more of a lagging indicator than a predicting one. This election maybe when they realize it.
I agree with this.

Are any of you other Xers glad that the Boomers' clout is going before us, especially on senior-friendly issues? No one will ever cater to us, so I'm glad that there's a huge generation in front of us to smooth the way on what will matter to us in a decade. Best case scenario: right about the time we need something, the kinks should be all worked out of the solution that the Boomers implemented for themselves. Of course, society's focus will have moved on by then because the North American public has a shorter attention span than a goldfish. But I think we will still benefit from their herd behavior.

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by jacob »

jennypenny wrote:The fact that the term "Homeland Education" doesn't make me flinch tells you how far we've come (fallen?). Can you imagine going back to high school (early 80's) and trying to explain the Department of Homeland Security to our younger selves??
I recall my history lessons in the 80s spending a lot of time on the rise of fascism in Europe in the 1920s and 1930s and the various institutions that were created along the way some of which rose to great power. Similarly, news media discussed the various surveillance states in Eastern Europe and their methods.

It's definitely possible to explain to a 5th grader what "The Ministry of State Security" is, what is does, and what it's capable off if it falls into the wrong hands so to speak.

Likely because of that any institutional combination of the words Schutz, Sicherheit, Abteilung, Vaterland, Staat, ... causes an allergic reaction.

It's much harder to develop enough self-reflection to recognize the beam in one's own eye, especially when its construction can be eminently justified by personal circumstances. This seems to be an inherent flaw with humanity. We build these institutions with wide popular support and typically in some reactive manner while completely failing to realize that we're recreating history.

PS: Of course it's easy to realize what just happened in hindsight and it's much harder to see it as it's being developed. This is also why I recommend advanced investors read old newspapers instead of market history.

Chad
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Chad »

GandK wrote: Are any of you other Xers glad that the Boomers' clout is going before us, especially on senior-friendly issues? No one will ever cater to us, so I'm glad that there's a huge generation in front of us to smooth the way on what will matter to us in a decade. Best case scenario: right about the time we need something, the kinks should be all worked out of the solution that the Boomers implemented for themselves. Of course, society's focus will have moved on by then because the North American public has a shorter attention span than a goldfish. But I think we will still benefit from their herd behavior.
Interesting. I have thought about the Boomers in the exact opposite manner. Take social security for instance.* It's the Boomers mass (and the other older generations) that has kept us from fixing it earlier and cheaper. They are pushing off the fix so they never have to give up any social security benefits. Of course, this means Gen X and everyone following will have to pay more (later age, less benefits, less inflation adjustments, etc.).

*I realize we may not necessarily need it, but I guarantee we will have loved ones that will.

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jennypenny
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by jennypenny »

@jacob--We were taught about those things, and that they happened over there. My HS years were during the days of Reagan, Repo Man, and the Hunt for Red October. The idea that something as insidious as DHS could happen here in less than 25 years (and while we were still a democracy/republic) would have been hard to fathom. Back then, DHS would have sounded like something out of the USSR.

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Ego
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Ego »

Chad wrote:
GandK wrote: Are any of you other Xers glad that the Boomers' clout is going before us, especially on senior-friendly issues? No one will ever cater to us, so I'm glad that there's a huge generation in front of us to smooth the way on what will matter to us in a decade.
Interesting. I have thought about the Boomers in the exact opposite manner.
I wouldn't be surprised if they do both. Our Boomer-aged public sector workers retire with the pensions of kings while younger workers get a 401k style plan. On the other hand the boomers are constantly pushing for new treatments to be covered by medicare. I wonder if a Millennial backlash will occur or if they will simply accept it as reality.

Dragline
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Dragline »

GandK wrote:
Are any of you other Xers glad that the Boomers' clout is going before us, especially on senior-friendly issues? No one will ever cater to us, so I'm glad that there's a huge generation in front of us to smooth the way on what will matter to us in a decade. Best case scenario: right about the time we need something, the kinks should be all worked out of the solution that the Boomers implemented for themselves.
No, usually Gen-X gets the Charlie Brown treatment from his elder Boomer sister. So in 1986 they got rid of the deduction for interest on personal debt. Then they started increasing the age for social security, but only if you were born after around 1960. Then they stopped making student loans dischargable in bankruptcy. All of these things happen to just exclude most Baby Boomers from the brunt of them. I fully expect all benefits to be reduced a few years before I will become eligible for them. And taxes to be raised on whatever my income sources happen to be.

So when things don't turn out so bad, I'll be pleased. ;-)

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

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GandK
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by GandK »

ffj wrote:My wife and I had a discussion the other day if it comes down to Clinton or Trump for the presidency. Conclusion: Is this the best we can do?
I would have a great deal of trouble making that decision. :shock:

JamesR
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by JamesR »

Nassim Taleb tweeted: https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/680368178317389824

"Brilliant analysis, but I am still conflicted about Trump. Authenticity (Trump, Sanders) is necessary,not sufficient http://akinokure.blogspot.com/2015/12/n ... trump.html"

Trump's definitely anti-fragile :D

theanimal
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

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Ego
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

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That was good. I wonder, though, if the wage class he describes will actually vote. They like the spectacle. Will they follow through?

Dragline
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Dragline »

As a block? Doubtful. They have not been corralled as one voting block since Truman. Too many other differences.

I liked this quote: "Like the other turning points whose impending appearance on the stage of the future has been outlined here, it’s not the end of the world; it’s thus a source of amusement to me to recall all those Republicans who insisted they were going to flee the country if Obama won reelection, and are still here, when I hear Democrats saying they’ll do the same thing if Trump wins."

This I will predict: No matter who gets elected, there will be howls from the losing side that "the end is nigh." And then they will continue on with their lives.

I think there is some chance that a Trump presidency would be ineffectual and transitional, much the like the celebrity governorships of Jesse Ventura (MN) and Arnold Schwarzenegger (CA). Now both of those guys appeared in the movies "The Predator" and "Running Man". I wonder if there is a Trump connection . . .

A quick search reveals that the internet conspiracy theorists are already well on top of variations of this looming revelation: https://extracapsa.wordpress.com/2015/1 ... s-attacks/

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by IlliniDave »

At this point I'm surprised that it appears Trump is in the race to stay. I'm also surprised that although I don't yearn to vote for Trump, I can't identify a single other candidate that I find distinctly preferable to Trump who also has a realistic shot at either nomination. The main thing Trump has going for him is that he is unabashedly pro-America, which I think the country could use a dose of after 8 years of ideological disdain in the White House. Cruz worries me because he is an ideologue too, in the other extreme. Our staggering future Medicare, Medicaid, and ACA liabilities (SS projected underruns are tiny in comparison) I think will force us into de facto Socialism whether we want it or not (assuming there is no chance of growing a collective backbone and reforming the entire healthcare system meaningfully). Sanders at least admits he's a pseudo-Socialist. Maybe it's best just to fold and pick him ...

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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by Spartan_Warrior »

I really need to be doing other things right now, so it's bad luck I should happen to lurk today and come upon this thread. I can't stop myself from responding, so... Ahem. *Clears throat*

The "millennial backlash" you guys keep mentioning is already a factor. It won Obama the election in 2008, and it is happening again in this election. You're just not supposed to know about it. ;)

You almost wouldn't know he's running, from reading this thread (or watching the news), but I'm talking about Bernie Sanders.

Bernie Sanders and the Importance of Grassroots

Millennials Have Gotten Royally Screwed: That's Why They're Voting for Bernie Sanders

Bernie is the reform populist answer to the authoritarian/nationalist populism of Trump. The light side of the Force that balances the darkness. :lol: He represents the socially and economically liberal side* of populist angst--the "change" that young progressives really wanted when we voted for Obama in 2008 (only to end up with Bush III).

*I'm not sure what side of populist angst Trump represents, but I'm inclined to sum it up as: the really ugly side.

Most of Bernie's positions (and yeah, unlike certain candidates, he has positions) enjoy majority support among Americans, regardless of political affiliation. Some of my favorites include: overturning Citizen's United and getting money out of government and the electoral process; breaking up "too big to fail" banks and reinstating Glass-Steagall; reversing a foreign policy of endless war and empire to focus on issues at home; taking steps to address climate change; ending the colossal failure of the war on drugs; etc. And those are just the moderate, obviously common sense policies! Add in the "dirty socialist" ideas like universal health care, free public college, and a progressive tax plan, and he's pretty much my dream candidate. Unlike the dark horse Obama, who we accepted as a progressive at his word, Bernie has a decades long career as an Independent that demonstrates he has not wavered in his support and fight for populist positions in the face of the bought-and-paid-for, politics-for-big-business-as-usual of both parties.

Most Americans agree with Sanders

According to Polls Most Americans are Socialists Like Bernie Sanders

Of course, up until very recently, he hasn't gotten any publicity, because Big Media is both deeply invested in Clinton's campaign and in love with the ratings from Trump's sideshow. Big Media, having a large lobbyist/campaign contribution bloc and obviously enamored of the status quo, wants nothing more than Clinton's "inevitable" coronation, and thus they are pretty damn terrified of Bernie. Notice how, since his polling numbers have become too big to ignore in the last week or two and the media has been forced to cover him, the hit pieces are coming hard and fast, not only from Rupert Murdoch rags like the WSJ, but from "liberal" news as well--and is anyone surprised when Time Warner, 21st Century Fox, and Cablevision are all top Clinton donors?

But despite the media blackout and mudslinging, he's been quietly closing the gap on Clinton: he's winning in New Hampshire, neck and neck in Iowa, in poll numbers very similar to (or better than) where Obama was in 2008, on the back of a very similar grassroots, Millennial-driven campaign. And we know how that turned out.

Furthermore, Bernie trounces Trump in every Quinnipiac national poll (in fact, most polls except Fox News). Actually, so does Hillary, albeit by a far smaller margin than Bernie. Worries of a Trump presidency thus seem overrated; to my eye, Clinton is the clear "chosen one" of the establishment. (I've even wondered if Trump's entire campaign is meant for Clinton's benefit... a pretty thick tin-foil hat even for me, but hey. Once you come to accept both Democrats and Republicans as two horns of the same monster, anything starts to look possible!)

For the same reason, I find the MSM meme that "Bernie is not electable in the general population" to be just that--yet another desperate psychic manipulation.

General Election: Trump vs. Sanders

As for Trump's candidacy, aside from shaking up the status quo in his own "unique" way, I appreciate him for one thing and one thing only. I used to be worried about illegal immigration and in favor of tightening immigration laws. Trump is one of the many reasons I've more or less reversed that stance, because he shows where such a stance could lead. And it's not a direction I care to take myself or my country.

I also appreciate that he's disrupting the RNC so thoroughly and simultaneously exposing some of the uglier sides of the party establishment. (Again, Bernie's doing the same with Wasserman-Schultz's DNC.) Other than that, to me Trump is nothing more than the personification of the "reality TV effect" in politics. Low information voters love spectacle and they love to feel their ignorance validated by "a rich guy who gets it". There is a certain low cunning to what Trump does, like a school yard bully with a really solid grasp on personal insults. I would not call it genius.

Sorry I have to come in here with my Bernie loudspeaker, but reading this thread (edit: until the IlliniDave response that appeared while I typed this), you'd almost think Trump and Clinton really are the only choices, which is dismaying, although it is the "reality" being presented by the media.

I am a millennial and I've voted in every election since I turned 18 just in time to vote for Gore. I can assure you I won't vote for Trump or Clinton. Ordinarily, faced with candidates who don't represent me, I'd vote third party, as I did in 2012. This time I'll be voting for Bernie if I have to write him in.

I encourage you to look into him, especially if you are feeling disenfranchised by the other candidates and/or politics as usual. If you like that Trump's shaking up establishment politics but, like me, find him disgusting and morally abhorrent both personally and politically, you may just be a Bernie Sanders supporter without even knowing it.

"An Open Letter to the WSJ on its Bernie Sanders Hit Piece" by U-Mass Professor of Economics Gerald Friedman

http://feelthebern.org/

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GandK
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Re: Trump - Clown Genius

Post by GandK »

@theanimal That opinion piece was great. Thanks for sharing. A lot of the comments were equally worth reading.

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