Trump - Clown Genius

[nestbuilder]

First, to comment on the article GandK shared: http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reasons-t ... lks-about/

The basic argument of the author:
Small towns and rural American are struggling. They are not represented or glorified in the mainstream media and worse yet are ultimately infected by the urban/elite albeit a couple of decades down the road. In the meantime, while they are struggling, the urban/elite worry about where their food comes from and openly mocks small towns and rural America for their delayed appreciation of human rights. And the church is losing its influence. And finally, “white cries for help” are devalued by comparison to reality of the longer and greater suffering classes in our country.

What is most interesting to me, and please know I was raised in small town rural America, is that those whites crying for help expect a level of empathy and validation that they largely refuse to give those “others” that they accuse of messing everything up. They not only cannot see that injustice (maybe it will eventually make it there just like the use of word “like”) but they can’t fight the primitive impulse to target their fellow countrymen for wrongs such as the decline of family farms, manufacturing and church attendance. And trust me, even though my great-great grandparents homesteaded in Nebraska, and their children lost the farms in the Dust Bowl/Depression, and they were forced to move to “town” for work and ultimately my grandparents to the city for education and work – they were never enslaved or explicitly denied basic human rights or encountered the layers of red-tape that non-whites, single women, gays, and so forth ran into at every turn. In fact, they landed on magically “empty” land that had been conveniently cleared of native inhabitants. At least my family was forced early on to adapt and were willing to do so.

So, I guess our country will suffer because of the human brick these folks just threw at our U.S. of A. They want, what, special sympathy? And to not be mocked for the old dogmas many others have been privileged to be freed of? And they want the rest of us to not be fearful or pissed because they sanctioned a gaping space for intolerance, bigotry and violence to thrive? And if they only wanted things like a more friendly inheritance tax or whatever and were not apparently swayed by the particular tone DT took, I wonder why a more sensible Republican did not prove competitive in the primaries.

I will add to @bryans mix-tape: Woody Guthrie "All You Fascists"

[Dragline]

Ego can feel free to continue shaming brute, as brute enjoys offensive arguments much more than jennypenny does (apparently).

frankly, brute thinks that shaming can turn into fascism, and it's often a fine line and a matter of perspective.

Not really perspective, but power. Shaming theater is a province of the press.

The difference comes when it is backed by power and persecution. As in the show trials of 1930s - 1950s in totalitarian regimes, show, democracies easily descend into madness when their political parties are in disarray as ours are right now:

Let's cut off the persecutions of convenient scapegoats before they begin so we don't have to "tell the truth" later:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGfHkdR3tXs

Suggest everyone watch the whole movie, especially the direct testimony of the character played by Judy Garland, which I use in my class as good technique on direct examination.

[GandK]

So, I guess our country will suffer because of the human brick these folks just threw at our U.S. of A. They want, what, special sympathy?

Just sympathy, really. Which apparently they don't deserve because... why, exactly? Because they're white? Because their pain is partly their own fault? Because they could move? Because they have prejudices and preconceived notions? Because they voted in self interest in a decision that affected others as well as themselves?

How does any of that make them different from any other human being?

And from a practical standpoint, how does minimizing their concerns and fears help anyone, in the end?

[nestbuilder]

Never said they don't deserve sympathy. Struggle is struggle. But yes, when their self-interest comes at the cost of others safety and rights, they certainly don't get my sympathy. They get my pity. I am not minimizing their concerns and fears. I am providing a context for them which is largely absent in the mainstream discussion in the hopes to better illuminate them for what they are.

[halfmoon]

It is now quite clear that virtually every racist in America, formerly closeted or not, views this election as confirmation that their views are acceptable and should be promulgated -- early, often and with malicious intent. It will take a concerted effort to stamp this out, but I don't think the new leadership gives a shit. I think they may think its funny, actually.

And I see a lot of people in my circles pretending this is not happening.

I truly see it happening. We had lunch with my stepson today, who is half German and half Native American. He's always felt discriminated against for his darker skin and assumed Hispanic ethnicity. He voted for Trump, which came as a surprise to me because I thought he could better understand arbitrary bias. Today he referred to white coworkers as 'my kind of people' and angrily criticized Mexicans for stealing American jobs. It seems that the Trump campaign helped to channel all of his frustration with menial work and low pay at the age of 50 into a palpable enemy, and also to give him a feeling of belonging with fellow Patriots (his word). Affirmation of one's most fearful/selfish impulses is a powerful force, as my DH who grew up in Germany can attest.

[Dragline]

So, I guess our country will suffer because of the human brick these folks just threw at our U.S. of A. They want, what, special sympathy?

Just sympathy, really. Which apparently they don't deserve because... why, exactly? Because they're white? Because their pain is partly their own fault? Because they could move? Because they have prejudices and preconceived notions? Because they voted in self interest in a decision that affected others as well as themselves?

How does any of that make them different from any other human being?

And from a practical standpoint, how does minimizing their concerns and fears help anyone, in the end?

I agree that we should embrace them. But what if they simply walk away because they refuse to believe that their individual actions and failures to act are the primary cause of their problems, and continue to scapegoat various "others" in search of a socialist regime that prefers them? Although they rail about "elites", their position is simply a mimetic copying of that elitism in reverse. It's just the difference between "I'm better educated and therefore I should have more", and "I'm more American than other people due to my rooted nature and therefore I should have more."

I am more than happy to embrace the downtrodden wherever they are and provide equal assistance to all. Sure, it will cost me some, but it makes a better society and I'll take it out of the costs of maintaining a police state. But if we're going to have a Sanders plan, lets admit that that is what we want and just do it for everybody and be content with it. And stop vilifying "government solutions" for some people while disguising our own as tariffs, deportations, SIP plans, corporate welfare and other such nonsense.

[BRUTE]

Brute, you mentioned camps which reminded me that Joe Arpaio created what he called concentration camps in the 120 degree desert not far from here.

brute detests Arpaio as much as Ego does. he features prominently in the book Chasing The Scream, about the drug war. in it, the author tells the story of a (white trash) woman addicted to drugs, who falls unconscious in a cage in one of Arpaio's camps with her face on the hot concrete. when guards later try to wake her, they find her face has melted to the concrete and her eyes have been cooked solid.

brute cried.

the change of perspective for Ego that brute advocates here isn't that Trump is right. it's that sometimes, the bad guys win. as a libertarian, every election feels to brute like this one feels to Ego. every time, evil wins. every time, war wins. every time, locking up plant smokers and shooting blacks and bombing brown children wins. no matter if it's dems or reps.

thus, a strict libertarian is an unhappy libertarian.

but an easy going libertarian is a happy libertarian - never attached to the outcome of any election, never full of hope for a candidate to save the day. always finding the silver lining. brute supposes it's a survival strategy.

Ego may find that he could benefit from using this strategy for the next 4 years.

[Ego]

How does any of that make them different from any other human being?

I posted that same article a month ago.
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=8200&start=25#p128797

@Ego
I think you should consider taking a couple of weeks off to gain some of your perspective back. Several people have tried to have calm conversations with you and you've responded with attacks. It's a technique I employ when I feel I'm "losing my shit" and it works to a large degree. I'm not trying to be condescending, but I am not recognizing the old Ego in this thread in particular.

ffj and Brute, Watch that clip dragline posted above. There are times when it is appropriate to be the detached observer. This isn't one of them.

[Dragline]

So, I guess our country will suffer because of the human brick these folks just threw at our U.S. of A. They want, what, special sympathy?

Just sympathy, really. Which apparently they don't deserve because... why, exactly? Because they're white? Because their pain is partly their own fault? Because they could move? Because they have prejudices and preconceived notions? Because they voted in self interest in a decision that affected others as well as themselves?

How does any of that make them different from any other human being?

And from a practical standpoint, how does minimizing their concerns and fears help anyone, in the end?

I agree that we should embrace them. But what if they simply walk away because they refuse to believe that their individual actions and failures to act are the primary cause of their problems, and continue to scapegoat various "others" in search of a socialist regime that prefers them? Although they rail about "elites", their position is simply a mimetic copying of that elitism in reverse. It's just the difference between "I'm better educated and therefore I should have more", and "I'm more American than other people due to my rooted nature and therefore I should have more."

I am more than happy to embrace the downtrodden wherever they are and provide equal assistance to all. Sure, it will cost me some, but it makes a better society and I'll take it out of the costs of maintaining a police state. But if we're going to have a Sanders plan, lets admit that that is what we want and just do it for everybody and be content with it. And stop vilifying "government solutions" for some people while disguising our own as tariffs, deportations, SIP plans, corporate welfare and other such nonsense.

[Dragline]

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/gop-pres ... d=43513067

Well, maybe he's not the con-man we thought, but just conned his socially conservative voters. Or just has feet of clay.

Don't know how Pence and Obannon can stay in this administration now without squirming bigly. I'm also wondering if he considers Roe v. Wade "settled law" and how his Supreme Court nominees are supposed to respond when they are asked if he agrees with the President.

I suppose I should not be surprised by my inability to predict anything. (DW certainly isn't.)

[bryan]

the interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ULwkfBeWh8

he comes off as quite moderate. Embarrassing those who have been likening him to Hitler, or thereabouts. Granted, we'll see.

[Dragline]

People on social media are now predicting he will be assassinated for this heresy. Says a lot (or maybe just something) about the state of our society, I suppose.

[Freedom_2018]

Interesting to see that where empathy and open listening without judgement would work, no amount of argumentation will suffice.

But that would mean being ok with revealing ones vulnerability and also offering the same to another.

Oh I forgot, INTJs don't do vulnerability, or empathy, but live for intellectual arguments - especially on the nameless, faceless internet.

So please, do carry on.

Glad I don't live in ERE city.

[Dragline]

Interesting yes. Because we're terrible. The worst. Thank you for reminding us. It's probably better you don't live here either.

Now why did you post this, which has no content? Helping us out in our ineptitude? Or maybe a -- hmmmm -- superiority complex?

You don't need to be here, but thank you for playing.

But I do hope you open, up, err, I mean "change" -- yeah, change sounds good, your mind someday.

This community may have harsh words for itself, but still knows its a community. I do not have the same kinds of conversations elsewhere and it makes me more grateful for these.

[bryan]

Still not a fan of Trumps direction on cabinet choices.

Glad I don't live in ERE city.

Seattle? Bay Area? Austin/Dallas? Has an ERE census or poll been done? Or maybe you mean a city ruled by those that are ERE-minded? Or a small town?

[Freedom_2018]

@Dragline

You may be right about my superiority complex. I just don't have a reliable way of knowing so will take your word for it:)

Glad you used the cohesive term 'community', sometimes it becomes hard to tell.

@Bryan

ERE city is hypothetical place that exists in the minds of some. My concern was that ERE might be a necessary but not sufficient condition as the basis of choosing ones neighbors. Reading this thread reminded me of that.

[Ego]

@Ego
Do what you feel is right, but I doubt you'll get many converts by attacking them.

Conversion is but one of many reasons to communicate. That which seems like an attack can be far kinder and caring than silence.

Someone who passed away recently and had a great deal to teach us, once said, "The opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference".

[llorona]

@ffj: Demonstrations may not change the results of the election, but they are a powerful show that a significant portion of the population disagrees with what Trump represents.

The resistance has a voice, albeit an emerging one, and it is not going to take this sitting down. This is not normal election business as usual, with folks upset because the other party won. People in my world (urban, predominantly non-white America) have been heartsick since Tuesday night. They feel violated, angry, scared, and traumatized, not just for themselves but people they love. I imagine this would be a hard thing for some people to understand, especially looking through a privileged lens (e.g., white, male, heterosexual).

There will be more protests in the future. They are not going to go away. This include calls for a general strike on January 20 and a Million Woman March in Washington the day after. If Trump takes a hard line stance and begins rounding up undocumented immigrants for deportation, there will be more protests. As time goes on, there will be other calls for action, whether that comes from a grassroots movement, a leader like Bernie Sanders, local and elected officials who take a stand, or groups like the ACLU and the Southern Poverty Law Center.

[7Wannabe5]

nesbuilder said: And if they only wanted things like a more friendly inheritance tax or whatever and were not apparently swayed by the particular tone DT took, I wonder why a more sensible Republican did not prove competitive in the primaries.

I think this is due to the fact that Americans are more divided on more issues than the discussion mediated for this election revealed. For instance, I live in a poor urban area heavily inhabited by fairly conservative Muslims. The 8th grade girls from Yemen I sometimes teach say "Hi" to me on the streets, and I do not recognize them because they are veiled except for their eyes. Obviously, they do not want to be deported or rounded up into concentration camps, but they are also seven leagues more socially conservative than anybody Trump might appoint to his cabinet. My former polyamour/current gardening buddy is fiscally conservative black man who heads up a community crime busting task force and doesn't approve of the way many of the recent immigrants from Bangladesh operate their motor vehicles or process EBT cards for cash back at their corner mini-markets. The Bengali woman with whom I sometimes eat lunch complains about how the taxpayer's money is being wasted paying her to spend all day 1 on 1 tutoring special needs children who have very little ability to retain any knowledge whatsoever while the brighter children are not given adequate resources. A teenager in my neighborhood who is most likely to make use of a racially derogatory slur word is also most likely to be dating a member of another race. This is also true in the more isolated cities in decline in my region of the country. There are probably thousands of cracker-azz Eminem wannabes who last attended a church service when the Baptist bus drove round to bribe them with candy, living in a trailer park outside of Bay City, Michigan with a black girlfriend and two babies who voted for Trump. The NYT should have apologized to its reading public because IMHO, it did a f*cked-up weak-*zz job of actually getting out there and investigating the situation.


Religious conservatism, fiscal conservatism and a tendency towards overt use of derogatory language and similar deplorable behavior do NOT come together to form an intersection of people who voted for Trump, but anybody who had a strong single issue or a strong cultural affiliation with any of these 3 non-overlapping tendencies chose to not vote for HIllary.

[IlliniDave]

Everyone has projected their worst nightmare scenario with this guy, and I for one would like to see what his first hundred days look like before I pronounce him the Anti-Christ.

There was quite a lot of fear mongering this go around. More so on the left because virtually the entire corporate media complex worked, and are working, overtime to fan the flames, but there was plenty on the right. In my little corner of the basket of deplorables among the most enunciated fears were jackbooted ATF agents kicking down doors at 2:00 a.m. to disarm everyone followed by jackbooted IRS agents seizing everything else just prior to a federally sanctioned invasion by ISIS. The IRS fears admittedly lessened somewhat as Sanders was summarily dismissed from the blue party process.

I tend to agree in thinking that not only will Trump prove much more moderate than his detractors portray him, he'll probably also prove more moderate in effect than his own campaign rhetoric taken at face value (true of each of the six or so prior presidents I've paid attention to the elections of). It's hard to make an argument that reason triumphed in any facet of the 2016 election process. But, as hard as we try to make it otherwise, humans are emotional creatures at the core.