Is the country headed for disaster??

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SimpleLife
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Is the country headed for disaster??

Post by SimpleLife »

We live in a country where about half the people don't pay income taxes, yet benefit from them, not as a temporary safety net, but as a tax payer funded way of life.

These same people retain the right to vote, which is scary, because certain political groups cater to this audience with the promise of more handouts if they are elected. They are fast becoming the majority.

And the cycle of ridiculous continues. You get rewarded for each kid you have, whether you can feed it or not, don't worry. We will take 40K from the paycheck of SimpleLife and give to you so you can buy formula, diapers, food, an iPhone and a nice SUV, pay your rent and then some (I've seen women use WIC checks and EBT cards at the store with Coach handbags, iPhones, well done nails, etc., get into a newer SUV after their shopping).

What is this country coming to? You are rewarded for being a dumb, lazy, or corrupt. The day I stop feeding this beast is drawing closer. Listening to a FI podcast the other day, a couple were interviewed and asked why they retired as millionaires at 30 even though they liked their business/job. They stated that they were effectively paying 50% in taxes and at that point asked themselves, it it really worth it to keep working to take care of the bottom feeders?

It made me consider that it is probably not, once you have enough to cover your expenses and any unusual situations that arise. It makes me sick to my stomach to think this is what society has become. Feign injury and call anyone of the personal injury attorneys on TV or on billboards, bus stops or benches to take money that isn't yours, for bogus claims, because you know it's cheaper for them to settle than to fight it.

jacob
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Re: Is the country headed for disaster??

Post by jacob »

Haha... the disaster you envision has been business as usual in Europe for almost a century now and yet individuals have been able to do just fine. As a palliative, I suggest reading the current BC selection on How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World ... Stop worrying about things you can't change and just protect yourself. The complex tax code in the US still makes this eminently easy.

For multiple reasons which would require an entire essay or more to cover, I'm much more worried about how the US is handling its foreign policy these days/years/past two decades. Unless attitudes change, that could be a real disaster. In that regard, I really gotta stop my nasty habit of living within just a few miles of primary nuclear targets.

SimpleLife
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Re: Is the country headed for disaster??

Post by SimpleLife »

jacob wrote:Haha... the disaster you envision has been business as usual in Europe for almost a century now and yet individuals have been able to do just fine. As a palliative, I suggest reading the current BC selection on How I Found Freedom in an Unfree World ... Stop worrying about things you can't change and just protect yourself. The complex tax code in the US still makes this eminently easy.

For multiple reasons which would require an entire essay or more to cover, I'm much more worried about how the US is handling its foreign policy these days/years/past two decades. Unless attitudes change, that could be a real disaster. In that regard, I really gotta stop my nasty habit of living within just a few miles of primary nuclear targets.
I honestly doubt that anyone would ever be dumb enough to target the US like that. Do you know how many dead trigger devices the US has all over the world that can launch auto counter attacks no matter what? It would be suicide for anyone to try that.

I think it would be more likely that the country keeps going down the drain as a result of political and legal BS. 96% of all law suits filed around the world are filed right here in the US. If you make more than 50K a year you have a 1 in 4 chance of being sued for some BS reason.

jacob
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Re: Is the country headed for disaster??

Post by jacob »

A deliberate suicide isn't required for MAD. All that's needed are high tensions combined with a random/unpredicted accident on those triggers. It's highly fragile or what risk controllers call a "normal accident" ... in this case rather terminal.

This is a good intro...
http://www.amazon.com/Command-Control-D ... 0143125788

And if you can't get the book, read through this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... _accidents

One way to interpret this is that because there have been so many of them, screw-ups are overrated ... another way is that we've been really lucky to survive the 20th century. I don't know.

Of course financial or systemic (e.g. legal/tort-reform) self-destruction (like how Greece has performed by developing a corrupt society) is also possible, but I think that would result in misery in which smart people will still thrive rather than universal destruction.

Point being ... be the smart person. You can't fix stupid.

PS: I understand the desire to fix stupid. It's something I still struggle with since many years, but it might just be better to let it go.

RealPerson
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Re: Is the country headed for disaster??

Post by RealPerson »

jacob wrote:Haha... the disaster you envision has been business as usual in Europe for almost a century now and yet individuals have been able to do just fine..
I thought that he bulk of the European welfare state was created after WW2. The run-up to WW2 showed the possible destabilizing consequences of widespread poverty. I think you can say the same about the welfare state as about peak oil. Greece is exhibit A of too few producers working for a lot of benefit recipients. The rest of Europe to follow in due time. All at a different stage, but essentially on the same trajectory. Europe has been able to sustain this by being obsessed with exporting. The US does it by borrowing. Either way is probably not sustainable financially, environmentally or demographically.

A number of European countries are in the process of rearranging (i.e. reducing) their welfare state benefits. Being part of the euro means countries cannot pass the cost of the welfare state on to bond holders and savers by creating inflation. SimpleLife is correct that an increasing number of people in the US as now receiving some type of government benefit. Still nowhere near European levels, but then Europe is not footing the bill for a worldwide military presence either (not saying whether this is good or bad, just pointing out where the money goes).

As far as the threat of a nuclear attack goes.... I don't know. I try to not live right by a target.

jacob
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Re: Is the country headed for disaster??

Post by jacob »

It's been almost a century since WWII (and yet it still dominates the History Channel :-D ). Seriously, it's been as long between now and WWII as between WWII and the American Civil War. In any case ... a really long time. (BTW Social Security started with Bismarck in the 19th century).

Otherwise yes.

The major regions in the world has some serious issues that needs resolving. Probably by some serious changes in attitude.

Here's one attempt
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=6544

There'll be other attempts but change is inevitable because the current system is incompatible with reality. Hence the change will be either voluntarily or forced.

I think the likelihood of global nuclear war is small (presuming human failsafes are still part of the system. I don't know, but I hope.) Regional nuclear war much higher. Proxy wars ... already happening in the ME and Ukraine, maybe Spratly Islands soon.

<sigh>

IOW, I don't think the 21st century will turn out much different in applied wisdom than any other century.

Dragline
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Re: Is the country headed for disaster??

Post by Dragline »

Yeah, the answer is no for any of the reasons cited in the OP, although they are essentially "ripped from your favorite internet headlines."

But the solution is simple. If you really feel like the country is going to hell, then I would leave now. It's the only sensible solution if you believe the hype. If you don't leave, don't expect me to believe the internet headlines or the whole makers/takers bull-schtick -- its just not credible. And no, poor people don't scare me and our society isn't that much different than some of the societies of yesteryear, except our technology is better.

jacob
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Re: Is the country headed for disaster??

Post by jacob »

... our technology is better, our population is larger, and we're somewhat shorter on environmental services, ... still chucking along, though, ...

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GandK
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Re: Is the country headed for disaster??

Post by GandK »

@SimpleLife

Well... I agree with you. Kinda sorta. I used to agree with you 100%, vitriol and all. I've mellowed a bit.

You're focusing on the micro (read: what you can actually change in some way) by retiring early. That's good. Best thing you can ever do.

I now think the macro issue is being clouded a bit by the changing technological reality. We are gradually needing fewer and fewer jobs to support humanity. If only 50% of able-bodied adult humans need to work in order for all humans to survive and thrive (due to advanced farming, robotics, etc.)... then what should that look like? 50% unemployment? 20 hour work weeks for all? Retirement at 45? What? (Edit: @Dragline and @jacob beat me to it!)

Like you, I'm very much in favor of everyone having skin in the game. And I've felt extremely put upon when I looked at my own tax bill. I remember feeling a ton of anger and resentment toward others when I realized I was paying taxes so other people could stay home with their kids when I couldn't afford to stay home with mine. (Solution: save up enough to retire so I CAN stay home with mine!) I do get it. And yes, I'm scared of people being able to vote themselves a raise from other people's income... you know it's coming! And I'm afraid of a wealth tax once we're done saving up for my husband to retire too. And I'm worried about the baggage retrieval system they've got at Heathrow... the list goes on, LOL. But my list of alternatives is slim.

What solutions do you suggest? Where I come from, you're not allowed to complain about anything without offering a potentially viable solution. Otherwise you are considered part of the problem. :D

Riggerjack
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Re: Is the country headed for disaster??

Post by Riggerjack »

Control what you can control. Influence what you can influence. Ignore the rest.

Also, get the hell outta town. Rural environments are less nurturing of the intentionally helpless.

And maybe listen to less talk radio. All they do is try to keep you emotionally involved in things you have no control over or influence to deal with.

chenda
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Re: Is the country headed for disaster??

Post by chenda »

The notion that half of Europe or America is free riding off the other half is obviously false. So no, although having a large, immobile underclass is not good for anyone.

@simplelife - maybe you should consider doing something to address the concerns you have, if your not doing so already ? Charitable work say for underprivileged children, promoting education opportunities, better sex education, financial skills etc etc Or doing some related academic research ? Could be worthwhile and may reduce your feeling of powerlessness.

RealPerson
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Re: Is the country headed for disaster??

Post by RealPerson »

Riggerjack wrote:.......the intentionally helpless.
Ha! Love that quote. I do have a very high tolerance for support to the UNintentionally helpless.

Public policy in this regard should balance supporting those people, avoiding social instability, and the demotivating effect of high taxation of earned income. I think we all understand this. The location of your "pivot point" depends on your ideological bend. As a lifelong hard worker, high income earner and payer of high income taxes, my tolerance for abuse is rather low. ;) . BTW I feel the same way about corporate welfare.

About how long ago WW2 was... I have quite a few family members who were born well before WW2. Better not show then Jacob's opinion on how long ago that was. :D

SimpleLife
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Re: Is the country headed for disaster??

Post by SimpleLife »

GandK wrote:@SimpleLife

Well... I agree with you. Kinda sorta. I used to agree with you 100%, vitriol and all. I've mellowed a bit.

You're focusing on the micro (read: what you can actually change in some way) by retiring early. That's good. Best thing you can ever do.

I now think the macro issue is being clouded a bit by the changing technological reality. We are gradually needing fewer and fewer jobs to support humanity. If only 50% of able-bodied adult humans need to work in order for all humans to survive and thrive (due to advanced farming, robotics, etc.)... then what should that look like? 50% unemployment? 20 hour work weeks for all? Retirement at 45? What? (Edit: @Dragline and @jacob beat me to it!)

Like you, I'm very much in favor of everyone having skin in the game. And I've felt extremely put upon when I looked at my own tax bill. I remember feeling a ton of anger and resentment toward others when I realized I was paying taxes so other people could stay home with their kids when I couldn't afford to stay home with mine. (Solution: save up enough to retire so I CAN stay home with mine!) I do get it. And yes, I'm scared of people being able to vote themselves a raise from other people's income... you know it's coming! And I'm afraid of a wealth tax once we're done saving up for my husband to retire too. And I'm worried about the baggage retrieval system they've got at Heathrow... the list goes on, LOL. But my list of alternatives is slim.

What solutions do you suggest? Where I come from, you're not allowed to complain about anything without offering a potentially viable solution. Otherwise you are considered part of the problem. :D

I think the solution is to use tax strategies to shield your income. Although I a high earner, I am not a big spender. This allows me to save and invest so I don't have to work, without living in a tent or some other unusual living situation, still living a middle class lifestyle. Since I don't need much money to cover expenses in retirement I can reduce my taxable income, then use investment income tax strategies further help negate much of that. I guess in a way, I will soon BECOME one of the bottom feeders. Please please PM me tips and tricks on how to obtain benefits. :mrgreen:.

Maybe then I will start to agree with the welfare apologists that welfare is good (when you are the recipient anyway). :lol:

sky
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Re: Is the country headed for disaster??

Post by sky »

I agree that your personal response to the welfare state should be to minimize your taxes and maximize subsidies and benefits to you.

I support the welfare state. It maintains stability. The amount of subsidies and benefits are always up for debate, but the general concept that the state provides for the poor is a necessity with the current economic system. Perhaps someday the system will change to one which encourages people to help each other, but that is not the case today.

I would recommend not letting it bother you and focus on improving your own life.

George the original one
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Re: Is the country headed for disaster??

Post by George the original one »

> We will take 40K from the paycheck of SimpleLife and give to you

You do remember that federal tax load also pays for defense and transportation and foreign policy and debt? Not all of it, not even HALF of it goes to social spending.

JamesR
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Re: Is the country headed for disaster??

Post by JamesR »

Saw some stats somewhere that said something like: only 30% welfare recipients stay on welfare more than a year, and it's down to 5% within 3 years.

EdithKeeler
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Re: Is the country headed for disaster??

Post by EdithKeeler »

We live in a country where about half the people don't pay income taxes, yet benefit from them, not as a temporary safety net, but as a tax payer funded way of life.
Well, your central premise is simply not correct. Of the people who don't pay income tax (down to about 43% of the population last year, BTW), about 20% of those people are senior citizens, most of whom probably paid a good bit of income tax during their working years. Also, about 60% of the people who don't pay income tax are people who actually work, so they are paying payroll taxes in the form of social security and FICA. Both groups are also paying other taxes including sales taxes, gas taxes and property taxes. Also, people who are not paying taxes are not necessarily all "taking" from the safety net.

I mean, feel free to rage about "entitlements," but the vast majority of people who use the safety net of SNAP and welfare don't actually stay on it for that long. Personally, I'd rather live in a country that takes care of its people than have to step through hordes of beggars when I leave my house.

That's not to say that I don't want things my tax money pays for to be managed better. There's a scandal right now here in Memphis about some HUD subsidized apartments that are owned by a group called "Global Ministries." The group, run by a preacher named Richard Hamlet, was given money by HUD to provide and manage low-income housing for some of the poor here. Instead of doing repairs, making sure there were no bugs and no black mold and decent living conditions, he funneled $4 million of TAXPAYER money into his other organization, some mission group completely unrelated to housing. In addition, he paid himself a salary of $400K or so a year. Now, if we just tightened up on all the shit like that, we could probably reduce taxes on everyone without an impact on benefits to people. You know shenanigans like this are simply a drop in the bucket.

Besides, I'm much more worried about corporate welfare than social welfare. When we stop giving $100 BILLION in subsidies--per year--to companies, (http://www.cato.org/publications/policy ... ral-budget), then I'll worry more about the actual "welfare" issues like SNAP, welfare, etc. that we spend roughly $200 billion on each year. In addition to the subsidies corporations get, they also get roughly $200 billion in tax breaks per year. We also subsidize the fast food industry by allowing them to pay low wages to employees--we taxpayers in return pick up the tab for their health insurance, etc. (http://billmoyers.com/2014/01/16/ten-ex ... ltra-rich/)

I actually don't mind paying taxes on what I earn. It's the price I pay for living here, and if I really hated it, I would leave. That's not to say, however, that I won't happily leverage myself in such a way that I will eventually pay a lot fewer taxes when I retire... and I'm entitled to do that.

I think that the TRUE disaster we face in this country is not "entitlements" but rather the culture of ignorance that pervades our society. The insistence on our ridiculous gun culture, the police state we seem to be creating in some cities, people being targeted or marginalized because of the color of their skin, the fact that so many of the people who want to be in charge refuse to believe the science of climate change but are more concerned about whether 2 consenting adults want to be married.. I could go on, but won't. We have much bigger problems than attorneys advertising on TV, man.

IlliniDave
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Re: Is the country headed for disaster??

Post by IlliniDave »

I think it depends ... starting with how one defines "disaster".

Will the USA persist indefinitely in it's current position in the world? Almost certainly not. Like it or not, we and our civilization and all of our technology are part of the natural world and subject to the same "rules"--meaning no situation is static and every orderly thing ultimately falls into disorder.

Are we in the end times, teetering on a precipice? Probably not. There are still enough checks-and-balances in the system to allow individuals some amount of freedom, and the freedom to find a way to create wealth is a powerful motivator, spawns a lot of ingenuity, and inspires a lot of hard work.

The onus is on the individual though. Society cannot convey success on the individual. Society can only refrain from suppressing the individual. The individual must ultimately overcome whatever obstacles he faces. The universe is not a "fair" place. Although we can undertake a few token gestures, we cannot make it so.

The "talking points" from the OP are old hat for the fox news/talk radio crowd. I do have a problem with politicians who say they are "subsidizing" people by allowing them to keep a little more of their own money. Whenever I hear POTUS and his party use the terms "the rich", "the one percent", "fair share" I want to put my fist through something. (Don't worry, there's plenty about their political opponents that engenders the same reaction in me). What is the definition of this "fair"? If we want to have a free market system we have to accept that some people are going to be very much better at it than others and just let it go. Those people aren't burying the money in their yards, they're using it to put people to work. That's not to say their aren't reforms that would be at least beneficial, but it's not a procedure suited to blunt instruments. There is a contingent out there who truly resent and want to punish people who are financially successful. My entire family is that way. If they knew the truth about my situation they'd label me a "rich bastard" and ostracize me.

It's pretty easy to speculate that in the foreseeable time (within the lifetime of the youngest among us) the western standard of living will decrease relative to the rest of the world. That doesn't mean it will decrease in an absolute sense, although it very well could. My personal belief is that the measures for standard of living are flawed--usually it's related to how much currency flows through a person's hands every year--a pretty shallow measure. I believe we (western people in general) can improve our lives markedly while substantially decreasing our consumption. That's what this site is all about.

I digress though. In the end I think it's reasonable to maintain some basic level of a social safety net. And as with any system, it will be exploited in ways other than how it was intended. Humans are experts at adapting to/exploiting environments. I don't think it will bring us to ruin any quicker or more certainly than Bill Gates and Warren Buffet getting really rich will. The "beggar class" has thrived on the fringe of human civilization for millennia. However, most of the people who rely on various social services do so temporarily, and out of at least semi-legitimate need, as has been pointed out prior.

If I were forced to bet, I'd still put my money on the home team. The USA and free market capitalism are imperfect, but I think far better and far more robust than we sometimes give them credit for.
Last edited by IlliniDave on Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Is the country headed for disaster??

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Of course, in a more naturalistic society, a man with your resources would be allowed/encouraged to take on one of those young welfare mothers as a second wife and thereby reduce your tax burden and stress level. I can't connect all the dots here but I also suggest that you might give Zola's "Germinal" a read.

black_son_of_gray
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Re: Is the country headed for disaster??

Post by black_son_of_gray »

EdithKeeler wrote:
I mean, feel free to rage about "entitlements," but the vast majority of people who use the safety net of SNAP and welfare don't actually stay on it for that long. Personally, I'd rather live in a country that takes care of its people than have to step through hordes of beggars when I leave my house.
I think it was a standup comedian who said (paraphrasing): "I don't have children but I gladly pay taxes for schools because I prefer not living in a community full of stupid people" :)
EdithKeeler wrote:
Besides, I'm much more worried about corporate welfare than social welfare. When we stop giving $100 BILLION in subsidies--per year--to companies...
A comparable amount is given to the upper middle class through mortgage interest and property tax deductions. This is one of the biggest government handouts, and it doesn't go to poor people! But I don't see anyone clamoring for this to go away. SNAP costs about $80 billion (~50 million people), about the same cost to government as letting people who make 100k+ deduct mortgage interest and property tax on their homes.

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