Russian thing happening in my neighbourhood today.

[BlueNote]

Today there were crowds of people walking down the street in my neighbourhood chanting and waving Russian and Soviet flags. A lot of them had old pictures of soldiers, assuming they were family. I saw one old man going up the street, with a walker, and a his whole torso was adorned with medals. A quick google search tells me that today is Victory day in Russia.

I was really surprised that use of Soviet symbology was so wide spread, particularly since these people have immigrated to Canada (a cold war enemy). I would have thought they would celebrate their "Victory Day" without the Soviet symbology considering that after the WWII victory Stalin and the Soviet apparatus killed millions of people in the purges and Gulags. Also it should be notes that nobody voted in the USSR, it was a violent revolution that was forced upon their people. If my interpretation of history is correct Stalin almost lost WWII and a hard winter and dedicated Russians took the eastern front in WWII in spite of what the Soviet Union stood for. The Soviet Union was almost like North Korea is now in it's level of indoctrination and cult of personality.

Yet there they are proudly wearing the sickle and hammer of a former repressive and now historical nation. I was walking through the grocery store where they were blaring Little Richard over the sound system and people my age were walking around wearing uniforms with soviet symbology all over them, there was some cognitive dissonance in that contrast.

Anyone have a good explanation for the widely spread patriotism towards the Soviet Union amongst Russian immigrants to North America?

[henrik]

This is done all over the world and the controversy they create is even bigger in the countries that used to be a part of the USSR through no choice of their own.

For most of these old guys, the "victory" is what defines their life and I see no reason it should be taken away from them. I don't think you can really classify it as patriotism either.

[BlueNote]

For most of these old guys, the "victory" is what defines their life and I see no reason it should be taken away from them. I don't think you can really classify it as patriotism either.

I wouldn't take it away but I have a hard time understanding why all these generations cling to the heavy use of soviet memorabilia. Assuming intergenerational transmission mostly explains the younger ones adherence.

[BlueNote]

“All things being equal, you root for your own sex, your own culture, your own locality…and what you want to prove is that YOU are better than the other person. Whomever you root for represents YOU; and when he wins, YOU win.” – Isaac Asimov

[chenda]

Its not really surprising. Russians are rightly proud of defeating Nazi Germany and Soviet imagery has always played a key role in fostering that aspect of national identity. The symbolism goes well beyond political ideology.

As Henrik mentioned, the symbolism is viewed differently in Eastern Europe, for obvious reasons.

[jacob]

Another factor is the human ability to double think when holding contradictory positions.

People put the Jolly Roger on their boats without a second thought as to what it used to represent. When I was a kid we put the flag up for people's birthdays despite national history. Speaking of which, why do people still put up the Confederate Flag? And so on and so forth. You can find dirt on any nation, either present or historic. If history doesn't matter, all we're really arguing about is the discount rate. It also seems to be a matter of degree; that degree is often determined by "team-color". When it comes to bad behavior, human nature tends to hold others to much higher standards than they hold themselves.

[BlueNote]

@jacob

I was also wondering if this was the same phenomenon as people still flying the confederate flag

[jacob]

It's the same phenomena as people flying any flag.

[jennypenny]

It's the same phenomena as people flying any flag.

I think there can be more to it than that. Symbols like the hammer and sickle and confederate flag have a much broader meaning to the people they represent. I think sometimes people use the symbols defiantly because they resent that a symbol like the hammer and sickle or confederate flag came to represent something horrible instead of what they believe it represents.

I understand why certain groups don't like those those symbols, and some people do misuse them to glorify past misdeeds or atrocities. But I don't think they (the symbols) are necessarily a litmus test on whether a person is pro-Stalin or pro-Slavery, and mean more to people than just being the political equivalent of wearing a team jersey.

[Chad]

I do think it's the same phenomena as people flying any flag.

The supposed "Confederate" flag always annoys me, as it is a battle flag...not the Confederate flag.
Real Confederate flag:


Many of the people that are drawn towards waving these flags need outside events/achievements to make themselves feel like they accomplished something. Because of this, they look back to the successful years. Old Soviets look back when they were the equal to the West/America and Southerners/rural look back when they challenged the dominant culture/population areas of the US and were initially successful. The same thing might even be said of hardcore US patriots.

Unfortunately for these people, they are fighting the "last war." I'm not suggesting they are fighting the Cold War or the US Civil War. I'm suggesting they don't realize nation states based on the Treaty of Westphalia are slowly losing relevance. This will probably be a slow process, and states will never go to zero in the near future, but states are slowly losing their power to other entities. They are also losing highly accomplished citizens to the idea of global citizenship. Of course, this has nothing to do with the UN or black helicopters. It has to do with opportunity. Having a piece of the US is nice. Having a piece of the globe is better.

[ether]

I think you under estimate the level of nostalgia people have for the Soviet Union.

Without a doubt Stalin's government was as repressive as modern day North Korea, but many of the people waving the Soviet flag never lived under Stalin or were directly harmed in WWII.

The hammer and sickle gives some people an identity and pride. Only 30 years ago Soviet Union was a super power. A feared military power with the largest nuclear arsenal in the world, the only country to challenging American influence overseas, and a massive industrial base.

Then Soviet Union collapsed, economy collapsed, population started shrinking partially due to suicide and alcoholism, healthcare, food, and housing quality decreased, job security disappeared, and a weak government couldn't properly address these issues. People became discontent and began to miss the old days of the Soviet Union. Victory day is a national holiday for Russia and many ex-soviet states, and lots of people that miss the old days of Soviet power and stability, so they dust off their flags and celebrate.

Just as reference Communist Party of Russia controls 20% of legislative brach so that gives you an idea of how impactful the Soviet Union is on Russian politics and every day people's life.

[BlueNote]

I do think it's the same phenomena as people flying any flag.

The supposed "Confederate" flag always annoys me, as it is a battle flag...not the Confederate flag.
Real Confederate flag:

Interesting I always thought the battle flag was the national confederate flag because that's how I have heard probably a hundred people refer to it.

Apparently (according to wikipedia) the battle flag was quite popular and it became incorporated into later versions of the national confederate flag

For example here is the Third flag of the Confederate States of America:

[sky]

For some reason people are attracted to lost causes. Never Forget!

This tends to annoy people who don't care about lost causes, because it seems stupid to bring it back up again, and in some cases people are threatened by resurgence of what used to be a dangerous enemy.

[BlueNote]

The hammer and sickle gives some people an identity and pride. Only 30 years ago Soviet Union was a super power. A feared military power with the largest nuclear arsenal in the world, the only country to challenging American influence overseas, and a massive industrial base.

I think you're largely right. The Soviet Union is associated with being first to space and relatively quick and large increases in the average persons standard of living. Add on to that the fact that it was a major world power wielding a lot of influence and I can get the nostalgia. They used to punch much higher then their weight class in most sports and always seemed to do well in the Olympics. I understand they used try to select and train athletes extremely early on for this purpose. I read an article once that detailed how a lot of people in the former Soviet state got the short end of the stick when the USSR dissolved. guaranteed pensions , benefits and jobs evaporated and a lot of corrupt people were able to take control of valuable former government assets in the wild early days of modern Russia. I could see why someone might have a strong positively biased nostalgia considering the current state of things.

[Dragline]

Saw some posters like this being displayed recently, too:

http://cache3.asset-cache.net/gc/842955 ... UIaw%3d%3d

http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images ... poster.jpg

As they say, politics makes strange bed fellows.

[ether]

I read an article once that detailed how a lot of people in the former Soviet state got the short end of the stick when the USSR dissolved. guaranteed pensions , benefits and jobs evaporated and a lot of corrupt people were able to take control of valuable former government assets in the wild early days of modern Russia.

The privatization of Russian government assets was insane! All the state assets were equally distributed as shares to the public to placate the communists, but then prices shot up and people sold their shares for pennies on the dollars to the only people that had foreign currency: mafia, high ranking government officials, and foreign speculators!

Voucher privatization took place between 1992-1994 and roughly 98 percent of the population participated.The vouchers, each corresponding to a share in the national wealth, were distributed equally among the population, including minors. They could be exchanged for shares in the enterprises to be privatized. Because most people were not well-informed about the nature of the program or were very poor, they were quick to sell their vouchers for money, unprepared or unwilling to invest.

Read more here

[Riggerjack]

Don't forget the power of cognitive dissonance. The more you sacrificed, the more stake you had in the system.

I know in my most rabid months after basic training, implying that my drill Sargents were anything short of heroic/sadistic, that somehow, your training was harder than mine, was fighting words. It is very hard to explain the long term effects that come from warping your own thought patterns to endure what you would have thought unendurable.

When I came home on my first leave, my friends got together, and we watched full metal jacket. They wanted me to point out the unrealistic parts of basic. The movie only showed the fun parts. When old soldiers get together, the best stories are of basic, and things that went wrong.

I imagine the same tricks of memory that let me look back on that time and laugh, that makes me nostalgic for the music of my teens, that I didn't even like at the time, also work to make Russian expats think back on the USSR with a smile.

[JamesR]

It is kind of sad when the tendency of humans is to default to 'Us' versus 'Them' thinking. They are willing to segregate along any kind of arbitrary line. Your family, your gang, your state, your country. Your race, your culture, your background.

Segregating along any of these arbitrary lines are really just varying degrees of racism. I use the word 'racism' here since it has strong connotations of exclusion & prejudice. The opposite - inclusion can also be considered as racism. To be an insider, you need to have outsiders. To be a race, you need other races. To be a nation, you need other nations.

Anytime anyone anywhere engages in any sort of nationalism, culturalism, familialism, are they not engaging in a form of racism? Anytime you see a couple of the same skin colour and background, a minority with a majority, people grouping along cultural lines or religious lines - are they not revealing a form of racism?

Studies show that people tend to be more attracted to those with similar backgrounds. Some of these choices happen at the genetic or subconscious level. Others because it's easier to understand and empathize with those of the same background. We're probably not gonna change human nature much, and it would be futile to prescribe anything to "fix" this issue. But perhaps it would be a nicer world if people were generally aware of the basic cost of their natural clustering behaviour.

By cost - I am talking of things like discriminatory practices and the opposite (privileged?). Warfare & killing is perhaps the ultimate extension of discrimination.

*Sorry for thread hijack. Also first time I've tried putting down these thoughts on paper - it is probably over the top. *

[Riggerjack]

If it makes you feel better, the general trend has been toward greater inclusiveness for the last few centuries. Allowing the forging of Germany from many Prussian states. Americans from the assembly of state citizens we had before the civil war, etc.

Of course, this has also coincided with leaps in individual prosperity. Many feel the prosperity will prove fleeting, perhaps the inclusiveness will be equally so.

[JamesR]

Very true, there is a trend towards inclusiveness. Much better that way.