Conquering fear by gamifying rejection

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walker
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Conquering fear by gamifying rejection

Post by walker »

Here's one way to deal with rejection -- actively seek it out, to the point where it doesn't bother you any more. Then make challenge cards and sell them as a game: By making a game out of rejection, a man conquers fear.
So what has Jason learned from all this?
That most fears aren't real in the way you think they are…
"Don't even bother trying to be cool," Jason says. "Just get out there and get rejected, and sometimes it's going to get dirty. But that's OK, 'cause you're going to feel great after, you're going to feel like, 'Wow. I disobeyed fear."
Here's to disobeying fear more often!

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jennypenny
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Re: Conquering fear by gamifying rejection

Post by jennypenny »

I like what he did, but I could never play that game. I think exposure therapy can work if a person has mild fears. Trying to conquer deep-rooted fears that way might feel more like self-flagellation. I would try that Spetsnaz stuff no problem, but that game? I find social rejection too painful -- I'd be self-medicating within a week.

workathome
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Re: Conquering fear by gamifying rejection

Post by workathome »

Some of that seems really asshole-ish to do. If you're going to make a game out of rejection you need to have something on the line, a real need or want, not just fraudulently interfering with and interrupting others lives.

Tyler9000
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Re: Conquering fear by gamifying rejection

Post by Tyler9000 »

Along these lines, one of my former coworkers liked to talk about a business class she took in college on negotiation. They had a standing weekly assignment to fail at a negotiation. She said the hardest part of the assignment was actually failing - she'd regularly ask for discounts for things and would usually get them!

walker
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Re: Conquering fear by gamifying rejection

Post by walker »

Workathome, I hear you, and the game site does point out "The respect and feelings of the person or party you are making a request to are paramount. Consider them first." I haven't seen all of the challenges, but to me at least they didn't seem that assholeish. Sure, "Convince a stranger you know them" could be asking for a punch in the face depending on the neighborhood, but "Before you buy something, ask for a discount" just sounds like good sense -- if a little out of my comfort zone, which is the point. The guy who invented the game also said that once he got the rejection, he didn't press further. Hopefully this game will help some people who have mild and unreasonable fears, rather than encouraging creepers and stalkers.

Also agree with Jennypenny that certain fears, and levels of fear, should never be the subject of a game.

Still, I thought this was interesting in the context of the Dating ERE thread and the general level of hustle, including comfort with rejection, it takes to pull off some ERE/entrepreneurial projects.

jacob
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Re: Conquering fear by gamifying rejection

Post by jacob »

This game has unintended consequences because it [the negotiation] will eventually make other people respond differently once they realize the existence of "gamers" (for lack of a better word). Systemically, it is a good game if the side-effects cause other people/the world to improve. It is a bad game if it eventually leads to a worse world.

I somehow suspect that this is a bad game. The reason is that humans are inherently cooperative. Humans also remember. Hence if we are exposed too much to negotiators getting a better deal at our cost... well, we'll simply either raise our prices or not negotiate at all.

In short, if you want to negotiate, it should be done with the aim to make BOTH parties better off because, like the first paragraph said, this will make the world better. If it makes one party better off but the other party worse off (because he pays the cost of the first persons gain), it will make the world worse.

Tyler9000
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Re: Conquering fear by gamifying rejection

Post by Tyler9000 »

Good point, Jacob. My referenced negotiating coworker also struggled with seeing past the immediate desire to "win". People often reminded her that we were in the type of business where relationships matter and reputation has consequences. Winning the battle, losing the war, and all that. Negotiation that doesn't form a -lasting- win for both parties may ultimately cause more harm than good.

I do think that facing fear of rejection is a healthy thing. I know a couple who recently bought a new build house way outside of the city at least in part because they have an irrational fear of finding themselves in a bidding war for an established home. Like in dating, sometimes you just need to put yourself out there to see that the sting of rejection doesn't last nearly as long as you think. It's certainly more fleeting than the numb throbbing pain of anxiety.

That said, the tactics involving lying to people or pushing what you can get away with (in the referenced OP game) likely will do more harm than good in the long run.

walker
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Re: Conquering fear by gamifying rejection

Post by walker »

Interesting – I was seeing the challenges more as requiring the player to invite strangers to negotiate, which could then result in a win-win.

If I overcome my slight unease at speaking up and ask for a discount on something, the seller can disagree/ignore me, agree, or agree conditionally. If he disagrees or ignores me, I realize it isn’t the end of the world, and start thinking about how to ask more effectively next time. If he agrees without negotiating, presumably he has his reasons (maybe I didn’t ask for enough of a discount!). If he agrees with conditions that I accept (e.g., discount only if I buy in bulk), then both of us are better off then when we started.

As I read them, the game rules don’t encourage players to push for a yes at any cost, but just get out there and interact with people, in some cases asking for things. Could excessive asking become a strain on the system? Sure, if non-game-players are forced to spend a large amount of time rejecting dumb requests. Is it selfish for me to boost my confidence at the “expense” of others’ time and attention? Maybe, but I’ll probably be shut down quickly if I’m too annoying, and be forced to learn how to make requests that are more appealing to others.

Now I’m wondering if INTJs would react differently to this game, to the extent they might be annoyed by a stranger starting a conversation and see these types of interactions as a drain on resources. So would this game be improved if the challenges were all beneficial to the “askee” as well as the player? How would that work, and would it still help people overcome fears of rejection? Or should rejection therapy itself be rejected? ;)

7Wannabe5
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Re: Conquering fear by gamifying rejection

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Tyler 9000 said: People often reminded her that we were in the type of business where relationships matter and reputation has consequences. Winning the battle, losing the war, and all that. Negotiation that doesn't form a -lasting- win for both parties may ultimately cause more harm than good.
Right. Can come down to sometimes subtle difference between keeping internal terms of contract vs. keeping contract itself. For instance, not cheating on a marital partner vs. not divorcing a marital partner with "I divorced him because he came home drunk every night" being not too damaging to reputation for keeping contract and "I committed adultery because he came home drunk every night." being more damaging. Often depends on degree of exposure to external or general market conditions. Interesting thing I have noted is that it is often the most hard-core negotiators/gamers who are most concerned with engagement in and enforcement of literal contract. Or to express the situation in broader terms, it is the player who is more certain that he has the greater likelihood of "winning" the "game" who is more likely to be concerned with the subsequent enforcement of literal terms of the contract. This is why women have the reputation of having "wiles" and small rebel forces engage in guerilla tactics etc. etc.

Also, being too hard-core in negotiating can worsen the human tendency to irrationally over-weight the cost of losing over the profit of winning due to ego identity engagement along the lines of "I am a great negotiator!" OTOH,being proud to the point of arrogance of not learning or using simple social skill practices such as negotiation or flirtation is just as "stupid' (or irrationally fearful) as being proud of not knowing mathematics or how to cook.

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Re: Conquering fear by gamifying rejection

Post by jacob »

@walker - To give an example of a "no free lunch" situation. I found that people on craigslist will ask for a discount despite my writing "price firm". Consequentially, I have raised my listing price by 10%. If they ask, I'll give them their 10% off getting us back to the price I originally wanted. This pushes the cost of their gain onto those who don't ask who then pay 10% more. It also makes it slightly slower for me to get rid of my things because fewer people are willing to start 10% higher. I could of course also just say no, but this could increase the time it takes to get a trade.

Of course in some cultures haggling is considered an art form and not haggling would be considered insulting.

tonyedgecombe
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Re: Conquering fear by gamifying rejection

Post by tonyedgecombe »

jacob wrote:Of course in some cultures haggling is considered an art form and not haggling would be considered insulting.
I've often wondered if that is really true, personally I hate haggling so will only do it if there is a significant amount involved.

Veritas
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Re: Conquering fear by gamifying rejection

Post by Veritas »

Alright, I realize this is totally not the point of this thread, but in the original linked article, we have this gem:
See, nine months earlier, Jason's wife had left him.

"She ... found someone that was taller than I was — had more money than I had. ... So, yeah."
I guarantee you that is not why she left you, buddy. But keep telling yourself it's because your ex is shallow. Oh, man.


@walker - To give an example of a "no free lunch" situation. I found that people on craigslist will ask for a discount despite my writing "price firm". Consequentially, I have raised my listing price by 10%. If they ask, I'll give them their 10% off getting us back to the price I originally wanted. This pushes the cost of their gain onto those who don't ask who then pay 10% more. It also makes it slightly slower for me to get rid of my things because fewer people are willing to start 10% higher. I could of course also just say no, but this could increase the time it takes to get a trade.
This is a great example. In general, haggling leads to reduced pricing transparency, which leads to all kinds of economic inefficiencies, costs being shifted onto parties with weaker tendencies to negotiate or weaker negotiating positions.

Scott 2
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Re: Conquering fear by gamifying rejection

Post by Scott 2 »

I put in a good amount of effort to overcome my hesitation to negotiate. I'm not great at it, but I understand enough to identify when I have the dominant position or can fake it. I also understand the emotional weight people bring to a negotiation and how that can influence their behavior.

A decision I came to, is that using those skills to pressure someone into a deal they aren't happy with, is no different than using physical might to take what I want from them. It might be more socially acceptable, but it's still a crummy thing to do. Clever theft, IMO.

I regularly leave resources on the table as a result.

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