Quiz

[Dragline]

Who said this? No fair if you Google it.

1. “Live and let live.” Everyone should be guided by this principle, X said.

2. “Be giving of yourself to others.” People need to be open and generous toward others, he said, because “if you withdraw into yourself, you run the risk of becoming egocentric. And stagnant water becomes putrid.”

3. “Proceed calmly” in life.

4. A healthy sense of leisure. X said “consumerism has brought us anxiety”, and told parents to set aside time to play with their children and turn of the TV when they sit down to eat.

5. Sundays should be holidays. “Sunday is for family,” X said.

6. “We need to be creative with young people. If they have no opportunities they will get into drugs” and be more vulnerable to suicide, he said.

7. Respect and take care of nature. Environmental degradation “is one of the biggest challenges we have,” X said. “I think a question that we’re not asking ourselves is: ‘Isn’t humanity committing suicide with this indiscriminate and tyrannical use of nature?’”

8. Stop being negative. “Needing to talk badly about others indicates low self-esteem. That means, ‘I feel so low that instead of picking myself up I have to cut others down,’” X said. “Letting go of negative things quickly is healthy.”

9. Respect others’ beliefs. “We can inspire others so that one grows together in communicating. But the worst thing of all is proselytism, which paralyses: ‘I am talking with you in order to persuade you,’ No.

10. Work for peace. “We are living in a time of many wars,” he said, and “the call for peace must be shouted. Peace sometimes gives the impression of being quiet, but it is never quiet, peace is always proactive” and dynamic.

[DutchGirl]

Could it be some hypocritical guy who lives in a palace and implies that gay people go to hell?

PS I find that many believers are kinder and better people than their spiritual leader, or than the god(s) they believe in.

[jennypenny]

Could it be some hypocritical guy who lives in a palace and implies that gay people go to hell?

I'm not sure that's true. He seems tolerant of everyone except the old school church leaders who insist on 'interpreting' his words for people. They get the boot.

I think the church could look very different in 10 years if he lives long enough.

[Ego]

I think he is great. The average catholic has a tolerance level for the amount of nonsense they are willing to sit through until they hear something that resonates with them. Something useful. He has changed the signal-to-noise ratio. That said, the noise is still deafening.

He makes me wonder if someday after a long rule of increasingly pragmatic popes we won't see a church that does what Dragline did above, presents only the good stuff and eliminates anything that requires faith.

[C40]

11. Stop touch little boys and girls inappropriately.

(Don't get mad, I'm just kidding)

[workathome]

If the Church removes anything that requires faith, wouldn't it just be a secular charity? I think you're saying, in practice, "I hope Catholics are one day no longer a religion."

[C40]

If the Church removes anything that requires faith, wouldn't it just be a secular charity? I think you're saying, in practice, "I hope Catholics are one day no longer a religion."

Yeah! Exactly! But would it be as effective without the heaven expectations?

[Tyler9000]

Nah -- Christ doesnt keep people away from the good stuff in the church. It's the bad stuff in the church that keeps people away from Christ. I think the pope strikes the perfect tone for growing the faith.

[jacob]

Judging by how it turned out in Northern Europe (which leads the US by 30-50 years in terms of these trends), here's the situation, more or less.

- Charity is handled by the [welfare] state. The church itself does little in that regard.
- People go to church when someone they know or they themselves are baptized (most), confirmed (many), married (many), die (most) and for Christmas (few).
- It's a rare individual indeed who goes to Sunday services. (I personally don't know any who does this or has ever done this.)
- Admitting to a belief in God is semi common.
- Actively praying, reading the bible, or "asking God for advice" is considered strange and even a cause for concern from others.

It might be important that NE is mainly Lutheran (and that's the default state religion --- the fragmentation of denominations as seen in the US doesn't exist) and so faith can be a private matter, no priests required for the "uplink".

In short the church is now an institution which covers some of the major life events. It still uses traditional forms wrt bible passages, psalms, etc. and there will be kneeling and praying for those events. As I said though, engaging in religious forms outside of those events would be considered weird.

TL;DR - The eventual outcome (based on Northern Europe) is for the church to only deal with major life events but otherwise play no role in society for the great majority of people.

[Devil's Advocate]

Yes, nice guy. But if you think he's hot, hey I'm scalding hot.

As you know (and if you ignorant sinners don't know, take it from me), God is a huge potato floating in the Andromeda galaxy. Bambi is God's only pet squirrel. And Bambi has authorized me to offer salvation to all who listen to Bambi's word, as channelled through me.

I want only 0.05% of believers' icome, not 10%. I'm VERY tolerant of everything and everybody. And I'll gladly deliver the most awesome quotes, next to which these will seem pale indeed. I'll produce them every week.

If you guys think that fellow's great, I'm The Holy Hot Potato.

[henrik]

@jacob - all true. In addition, they are active in real estate ownership and management:) + hosting assorted cultural events (concerts, etc)

[Devil's Advocate]

A freeloading peddler of BS is a freeloading peddler of BS.

He may be better than his more intolerant counterpart, or his more ignorant counterpart, or his more perverted counterpart, or his more violent and homicidal counterpart, but he still remains a freeloading peddler of BS.

In any kind of sane world this clown shouldn't be there at all. And if he had any real shame or real decency he'd stop wraring that ridiculous dress and stuffing his belly with food he hasn't earned.

Sure he's better than many of his predecessors and many of his compatriot. So bloody what? Talk of setting low bars!

[jacob]

@DA - Despite trying to live up to your monicker, let's not start a holy war in this thread.

[Devil's Advocate]

Jacob : Agreed.

But beware : you've dared to go against the Holy Wish of the Great Potato, if only by not genuflecting before Me and validating my every small thought. You're lucky the Potato and the Holy Squirrel are feeling benevolent today, but careful next time.

All right : Zip!

[Ego]

If the Church removes anything that requires faith, wouldn't it just be a secular charity?

Not necessarily. The list Dragline posted above shows how people are yearning for answers to hard questions, answers that are grounded in reality. The pope is really reflecting what people want. His competitors have been luring people away from Catholicism for quite a while now using Starbucks and practical, down to earth philosophical advice. The first person who can find a way to fill this void without magic will rule the world.

I think you're saying, in practice, "I hope Catholics are one day no longer a religion."

Yeah, because I actually enjoy the coordination and unity of singing with a group but find it troubling to do so when the subject of each and every song is one that I don't believe.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Ad ... ne.0024893

I'm selfish like that.

[jennypenny]

His competitors have been luring people away from Catholicism for quite a while now using Starbucks and practical, down to earth philosophical advice.

Actually, the Church is steadily growing worldwide. I'm not sure why most people are under the impression that the Catholic church is shrinking. From Wiki: Catholic Church membership in 2011 was 1.214 billion (17.5% of the world population), an increase from 437 million in 1950 and 654 million in 1970. Since 2010, the rate of increase was 1.5% with a 2.3% increase in Africa and a 0.3% increase in the Americas and Europe.

TL;DR - The eventual outcome (based on Northern Europe) is for the church to only deal with major life events but otherwise play no role in society for the great majority of people.

I'm not sure Scandinavia is a good judge wrt the Catholic Church. It was never a part of the culture there.

Nah -- Christ doesnt keep people away from the good stuff in the church. It's the bad stuff in the church that keeps people away from Christ.

+1

The list Dragline posted above shows how people are yearning for answers to hard questions, answers that are grounded in reality. The pope is really reflecting what people want.

I think comments like the ones Dragline posted reflect Pope Frances' ability to articulate the Church's beliefs as they relate to the modern world ... where the spiritual rubber hits the road, so to speak. His comments help people learn how to weave their faith into their modern lives and focus on the more compassionate parts of the faith.

[Ego]

His competitors have been luring people away from Catholicism for quite a while now using Starbucks and practical, down to earth philosophical advice.

Actually, the Church is steadily growing worldwide. I'm not sure why most people are under the impression that the Catholic church is shrinking. From Wiki: Catholic Church membership in 2011 was 1.214 billion (17.5% of the world population), an increase from 437 million in 1950 and 654 million in 1970. Since 2010, the rate of increase was 1.5% with a 2.3% increase in Africa and a 0.3% increase in the Americas and Europe.

While nearly one-in-three Americans (31%) were raised in the Catholic faith, today fewer than one-in-four (24%) describe themselves as Catholic. These losses would have been even more pronounced were it not for the offsetting impact of immigration.(1) Yet despite the Hispanicization of American Catholicism, immigrants are being lured away from the church in record numbers. Pew finds that 55 percent of Hispanics in the United States identified themselves as Catholic in 2013, down from 67 percent in 2010.(2) And overall, a large percentage of those who call themselves Catholic are really not practicing. A Gallup poll found that since 1955 church attendance among American Catholics has dropped from 75% to 45%. (3)

(1) http://religions.pewforum.org/reports
(2) http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/08/upsho ... 0002&abg=1
(3) http://www.gallup.com/poll/117382/churc ... tants.aspx

[jacob]

@jp - When comparing numbers, always consider whether those are relative numbers or absolute numbers. For example, the world population increases faster than 2%, so if Catholicism is gaining less than that, it's losing the relative game.

Same thing with hunger. Relatively fewer people are hungry, but absolutely more people are.

Another way to see the trend is to look at demographics. Do younger people believe more or less than older people? Be very careful about classifying though. There's a big difference between practicing and non-practicing, e.g. people might check the box for X when describing their religion but if they actually aren't practicing it, what are they really?

Ahh.. I see Ego already covered this classification issue above.

Another interesting issue is that religiosity varies by state in the US. New England states are some of the least religious states. In terms of "how important religion is in your life" (possible classification issues again), the US scores about the same as the Middle East. Europe is far below. Asia is below too.---From a survey I came across 5 years ago. This is perhaps not so surprising since some of the early US immigration was due to religious persecution in Europe. One might imagine that people who are willing to emigrate due to [disagreements] faith are somewhat more attached to their faith than those who stay behind.

Finally, INTJs (there it is again) is the least likely MBTI temperament to hold religious beliefs.

[workathome]

As far as I can tell, Catholics aren't very good at evangelism. American protestants seem to really have that down. The Catholic church is somewhat insular, and I'm guessing most of the growth is through birthrate. If you account for the people leaving the faith, perhaps a typical higher birth-rate among Catholics (vs mainstream, secular society) is accounting for continued growth.

WRT to my comment "without the Catholic faith, wouldn't they just be...", I mean that, if secular non-Catholics (or could we make the logic simpler by saying anti-Catholic, or those who aren't for organized religion?) are largely in praise of the Church's new modernizing/secularizing direction, it might actually be a cause for concern among current Catholics. Maybe like a theoretical case of the Arab world loudly praising a decision by Israel to disarm its nuclear warheads and disband its armed forces - more a "canary in the coal mine" than a cause for joy.

That said, I find Catholic theological very logical and consistent, and coming from a protestant background it really surprised me how much (more) sense it made. Maybe Francis is doing a good job of opening the idea of Catholicism up to those who have a default prejudice against the Church from a protestant or secular upbringing.

[llorona]

@workathome:

I find Catholic theological very logical and consistent

What do you mean? I'm curious to know.