Stoic Attitudes Meditation

[Ego]

A combination of two useful practices, meditation and stoicism.

http://blogs.exeter.ac.uk/stoicismtoday ... editation/

Also, another resource on stoicism.

http://modernstoicism.com/

Missed the Stoic Mindfulness and Resilience Training online course by one day.

[IlliniDave]

That looks interesting. Sometime in the near future I think I'll look it over some of the material at the second link more carefully.

[Ian]

I appreciate Stoicism, but I've never found meditation to be a useful practice. I'm willing to change my mind, however - anyone want to provide me with a link arguing for it?

[Ego]

What happens when you sit down that makes it feel useless?

There are two broad categories of mediation. The first is made up of meditations designed to calm the mind (think mantra, ummmmmmm) and those that focus on a subject (Stoic meditation above). The second type focuses the conscious attention back on the mind itself and the thought stream it produces (metacognition).

I find that latter useful, hence my username. It puts distance between me and the thoughts flowing through my head which means that I can think a little more before reacting automatically than I would otherwise have done. That can be a double-edged sword. Watching the shitstorm occurring up there in my head can allow me to spot things that would have gone unnoticed and maybe I can do something about them.

That said, there is some very new evidence that those who watch the shitstorm perform cognitive filtering which might diminishe the creative aspects of daydreaming. They also short circuit the automatic learning process (habits) which can be a good, but it can also be bad if the habits that would have been learned were positive.

http://lesswrong.com/lw/iuh/meditation_ ... cognition/

[frihet]

Maybe this computer programming intj infested forum would enjoy this book. The 2000 thousand year old maps of the level or insight stages you go through in vipassana meditation is as accurate as subtle things like this can be.

Went to a 2 weeks retreat after reading about this maps. Fascinating how when you followed the technique to the t 24/7, I recognized how this stages arose one after another.

In the spirit of ere and Buddhism it's of course free to download.

"Nearly all of my earlier writings have been compiled, edited, expanded and integrated into a work calledMastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, An Unusually Hardcore Dharma Book. I think it is one of the more practical and technically detailed manuals for high-level insight and concentration practice available, and its maps of spiritual terrain and advice for navigating in unusual territory are world-class."

http://integrateddaniel.info/book/

PS. Curious to see if anyone with more math knowledge than me can find any meaning in the equation that is on top of his web-page?

[jacob]

It's a bunch of integrals of the type int(1/n sin(nx))_0^2pi ... all of which integrate to 0 over the full cycle. The e/pi constants do nothing as far as I can tell. Maybe they're just there for "decoration"? Then all those zero terms are integrated over a lifetime to yield another 0.

"Daniel" is the independent variable (kinda like x) so it could also be seen as looking at something that cycles at all possible harmonies for EXACTLY one wave length but only considering the actual time when "Daniel" is alive.

Not that any of this has any physical meaning.

[Ian]

What happens when you sit down that makes it feel useless?

It's not that I feel it has no uses, just that it seems like a very time-intensive way of getting results. I can't say my mind is constantly a placid lake of transcendent tranquility, but when I need to calm or focus, I can just take a moment to order my thoughts. I feel like whenever I have time/freedom to meditate, I would already be pretty calm.

I find that latter useful, hence my username. It puts distance between me and the thoughts flowing through my head which means that I can think a little more before reacting automatically than I would otherwise have done. That can be a double-edged sword. Watching the shitstorm occurring up there in my head can allow me to spot things that would have gone unnoticed and maybe I can do something about them.

This, on the other hand, I didn't associate with meditation but perhaps should have. I can definitely understand the value in being able to view your thoughts and feelings not as intrinsically yourself, but another input which you can choose to let affect you as you wish. But it seems to me that this is a skill that needs to be built up while in the process of being involved with other parts of life - to me it feels like having a dedicated time for it would create an artificial space that wouldn't resemble the circumstances under which you'd want to use it.

[almostthere]

@frihet - nice to see another hardcore dharma practitioner

[jacob]

I'm also kinda curious as to what the use [of meditation] is. In particular, will meditation give me superpowers or is it simply the solution to a problem I don't have.

I used to have an internal dialogue going at all times. Then I successfully experimented with turning it off simply by stopping the train of thought and "thinking about nothing" whenever I did my long walks (commute). I've fixed my breathing and my "hockey vision" (useful for walking faster than everybody else and not bumping into cell phone zombies) in the same way. Later I tried to switch from thinking in spoken language to geometric and numerically intuitive ways with some success. I let my intuition solve most larger problems and it's simply a question of waiting for inspiration to come. That is, set up the environment [by uploading the facts] and then sit and wait for the quarry to walk by [the solution] and shoot it [formulate it actively].---Rather than trying to farm for it.

Consequentially, I can't really relate to the "calming the mind" ... maybe it's because it's already calm?

[almostthere]

What is the use of meditation?

My background is theravadan buddist meditation. Other traditions may give you other answers.

Short answer to reduce suffering. One practices concentration to be able to clearly focus the mind. Once the mind is focused then one can begin investigating the nature of mind and matter and their characteristics, one of which is ceaseless change (anicca). This will eventually lead to momentary glimpses of nirvana. All along the way, one begins to have insights into the nature of suffering.

Higher levels of concentration can also lead to very pleasurable states. The Buddha often referred to these pleasurable states (jhanas) as fruits of the practice in this very life. For some adept concentration practitioners, it is said that certain psychics powers called siddhis can be achieved.

For more info, I'd recommend the book above by Ingram, The Noble Eightfold Path by Bhikku Bodhi, and In This Very Life by Sayadaw U Pandita. All free and easy to google. If I only read these three books for the rest of my life that would be enough to get the job done.

I got a less serious answer on my first meditation retreat from the first guy I ever spoke to. He said, “Some people go to baseball games, others meditate.” In other words, some people just enjoy exploring the mind and getting it into fantastically pleasurable sublime states*. Ingram above is one of those.

*You have to wade through huge amounts of boredom, fear, terror, loathing and other assorted negatives states to reach that point – if you don't give up way before, as most do.

You'll also find a number of other very good answers such as reducing stress and blood pressure and its effects on brain structure.

The stuff Ingram describes is much more fun.

[Ego]

But it seems to me that this is a skill that needs to be built up while in the process of being involved with other parts of life - to me it feels like having a dedicated time for it would create an artificial space that wouldn't resemble the circumstances under which you'd want to use it.

I agree. It can be a little like practicing a martial art without an opponent. I guess at minimum the shadow-kung-fu practitioner is better off in a real fight than a sedentary person. Likewise the meditator might be better off in a crisis than the person with an unexamined inner life. Of course, meditation is not the only way to perform the examination.

I used to have an internal dialogue going at all times. Then I successfully experimented with turning it off simply by stopping the train of thought and "thinking about nothing" whenever I did my long walks (commute). I've fixed my breathing and my "hockey vision" (useful for walking faster than everybody else and not bumping into cell phone zombies) in the same way. Later I tried to switch from thinking in spoken language to geometric and numerically intuitive ways with some success. I let my intuition solve most larger problems and it's simply a question of waiting for inspiration to come. That is, set up the environment [by uploading the facts] and then sit and wait for the quarry to walk by [the solution] and shoot it [formulate it actively].---Rather than trying to farm for it.

Consequentially, I can't really relate to the "calming the mind" ... maybe it's because it's already calm?

I think most people don't even notice what they are thinking about and have no clue that they can think about thoughts. Even those of us who can conceptualize the conscious/unconscious split have difficulty putting it to use in the way you describe above. I know I do.

[Chad]

Some very interesting possibilities concerning meditation.

http://gizmodo.com/can-meditation-reall ... 1598973942

[Ego]

Some very interesting possibilities concerning meditation.

http://gizmodo.com/can-meditation-reall ... 1598973942

Great article. The writer was smart to include the controversy on whether telomere length is a sign of aging or is the cause of aging. Right now we don't know. It is possible that searching for techniques to lengthen telomeres or to delay their shortening are no different than dying gray hair. Treating a symptom.

On the other hand, she completely missed an important point. She presented the data as high stress = shorter telomeres. But that is not necessarily true.

The results were crystal clear. The more stressed the mothers said they were, the shorter their telomeres and the lower their levels of telomerase.

and

Researchers have since linked perceived stress to shorter telomeres in healthy women as well as in Alzheimer's caregivers, victims of domestic abuse and early life trauma, and people with major depression and post-traumatic stress disorder.

If you believe you are stressed and you believe that stress is bad for you, then maybe your telomeres are shorter. What if you believe that you are not stressed or you believe that stress is good for you? It sounds like woo to say that if we believe stress is good then it is good. But that might be why meditation is good, because it reveals the reality that can get buried under a mountain of useless thoughts.

Don't take my word for it. Cue the brilliant scientist in the red pants....

https://www.ted.com/talks/kelly_mcgonig ... our_friend

[Chad]

If you believe you are stressed and you believe that stress is bad for you, then maybe your telomeres are shorter. What if you believe that you are not stressed or you believe that stress is good for you? It sounds like woo to say that if we believe stress is good then it is good. But that might be why meditation is good, because it reveals the reality that can get buried under a mountain of useless thoughts.

Don't take my word for it. Cue the brilliant hottie in the red pants....

https://www.ted.com/talks/kelly_mcgonig ... our_friend

Almost like woo, but I have seen studies suggesting the possibility. Plus, I do think the mind has a lot of control over the body.

[Ian]

I wouldn't put that in the woo category either, simply because I think the evidence isn't in on how much of the damage caused by stress is due to the placebo effect. It strikes me as very plausible that stressful conditions will cause a lot of negative placebo effects, so likewise I'd buy that viewing those conditions in a positive light could eliminate the negative impacts (pending thorough research, of course).

[SimonJ]

Vipassana meditation goes much deeper than just calming the mind and relieving stress.

By observing body sensations through the practice of vipassana, one begins to see the link between these sensations, the stimuli provided and ones reaction. One sees that it is not the stimuli that is being reacted to, but rather the sensation that is produced by exposure to the stimuli. The reactions have all become deeply ingrained habit patterns formed over years of repetition based on learned ways of behaviour. The sensation is either pleasant, in which case one craves to have more of it, or the sensation is unpleasant and one generates aversion towards it and wishes it gone. The decision of whether the sensation is pleasant or unpleasant is made unconsciously (nearly instantaneously) based on all prior experiences in life.

So by sitting and simply observing the sensations that arise on the body without reacting, the habit pattern of the mind begins to change. The habit pattern was to always unconsciously react to every sensation, but through practice the mind can be trained to consciously observe a sensation as it arises and choose not to react to it. This is a rewiring of the neural pathways from an unconscious habit to a more conscious state of observation. By changing the state of the mind from swinging between unconscious cravings and aversions of sensations triggered by external stimuli to a place of observation, one is in a much healthier state of being. Life in general becomes much better and easier. The ups and downs of everyday life become much more manageable and things like cravings for food/drugs/shopping/whatever can be better observed and seen for what they are.

My two cents anyway. Hope it makes some sense to someone.

[Quadalupe]

The Stoic Mindfulness and Resilience Training (SMRT) will start next Sunday. Will some of you also partake? I've just enrolled! You can enroll at http://modernstoicism.com/

[DSKla]

@Jacob What you described is what I've usually referred to as mindfulness, and I guess some people would say that it's meditation. Being able to turn off the dialogue and think of nothing, or just experience the present, seems like it could be called meditation or is at least the first stage of it. If you didn't experience a calming, it could be that your thoughts and dialogues just weren't very distressing. To me, a lot of my thoughts are fun. I let them roam, so long as I can turn them off when I need to.

My personal experience has been what SimonJ described. By being attuned to the sensations in your body and how they change, it puts me more in control of emotional swings. Which for me have always been very minimal, but in particular I let little things bother me less. For example, when some sidewalk cyclist nearly plows me, I only get angry for a second then I let it go, instead of steaming for the rest of the walk to the bus stop. I think this evolved from my yoga nidra scripts, which have you tracking not only breathing and thought, but sound and sensation. Acknowledging an experience and letting it pass without leaving a ripple.

I don't know what the higher order benefits are, since I'm not there yet. I think a lot of people could benefit to some degree, though. If you're already very calm and healthy it may be a small change, but most people don't fit that description. From a physical standpoint, control of the breath and directing it into any area you want has an incredible healing quality over pain and injury, probably from increasing the bloodflow to the area and the overall oxygen intake. Again, this is depends on the individual, but some people who hold a lot of tension and have certain ailments literally do not breathe a full, relaxed breath and tend to use accessory breathing muscles instead of primary ones.

All that said, I would never recommend meditation to a golden retriever, because I think to a large extent it's just learning to return to a natural state of mind. People need it for the same reasons they need 30 minute bouts of exercise and diabetes medication. Tension and a permanently anxious mind are lifestyle diseases are far as I'm concerned. Other species don't exercise or meditate. They just live.